Of course I know that song and voice are material artefacts, Tony.
Indisputably, as you say.
I realise that the distinction, if indeed a distinction can be made,
between speech and forms of enduring artefact, is a secondary one, and
not one of principle, the point is: how to explain to someone for whom
"material" and "mediation" and "artefact" are not significant
categories*? For most people, speech is something people do (which it
is as well) and the fact that they draw on an existing language is "Oh
well of course" but not an issue of any significance. If you want to
communicate with someone you have to use a common language, of course.
And if you move the topic to the prior existence of the common
language, the response is that this common language was created in the
same way, by people talking to each other (which of course it was) and
the prior existence of something not created in the given interaction
is never seen as essential to the situation. Infinite regress.
Do you see my problem?
Andy
(And Derrida was just pulling our leg I think. Like Baudrillard saying
the Gulf War never happened. I could never take that argument
seriously.)
* I thinik that for a lot of people "material" is something talked
about only by dogmatic marxists or naive realists, while "mediation" is
nothing to do with person-to-person interaction, and "artefact" is not
significanly different from "natural."
Tony Whitson wrote:
Andy,
Song, as you describe, is indisputably material -- but it is not a
physical thing in the same sense as a flute or a song sheet. It seems
to me you make your position unnecessarily vulnerable by treating
materiality as more a matter of physicality than it needs to be (cf.
the baseball examples).
The Talmud example brings to mind Plato's objections to recording &
transmission via writing (a bit ironic, no?, from the transcriber of
Socrates' dialogues), which I would never have attended to but for
Derrida, in D's treatment of the traditional prioritization of speech
over writing. D's argument for "grammatology" is that speech itself is
fundamentally a kind of "writing" first; but in a sense that I would
say is material, but not necessarily physical.
On Wed, 19 Oct 2011, Andy Blunden wrote:
Yes, I think it is the case that those
currents of thinking that do not have "mediation" in their lexicon are
just "quite different" and it may be, as Deborah suggested, a question
of "agreeing to disagree". Probably, in the end it is the value of work
produced by the different traditions of psychology which will tell.
Within the bounds of philosophy, it may be irresolvable.
I had thought of song in this way as well. It is not "enduring" in the
same way as the song sheet or the flute, but song seems to have a
visceral quality which plays the role of making things endure. The
famous remark of a kid who was learning their times tables at school:
"I know the tune, but I haven't learnt the words yet."
Interesting point about the Talmud. I did not know about resistance to
writing it down. What a great insight from that time. Hopefully they
wrote it down! :) There is a lot o scripture which could certainly do
with a bit of lived reinterpretation!
Still thinking!
Andy
Helen Harper wrote:
Hi Andy,
It seems as if your sparring mate is conceptualising the process of
'transmission' in quite a different way from you, so it might be that
you just end up seeing quite different things. But it might be relevant
to the discussion to point out that even oral traditions are invariably
formalised and 'objectified' to some extent. All the oral cultures that
I've ever encountered or read about use song cycles, chanting, special
intonative patterns, repetition and other such metalinguistic tools.
These tools can make the language 'special' and worth transmitting;
they are also more easy to repeat and presumably act as mnemonics. The
special forms are found in high culture, but they're also found in
everyday activities, particularly transmitting things to kids (what's
often referred to as 'baby talk' in linguistics can involve some
grammatical simplification, but also invariably involves an
exaggeration of phonological patterns, lengthening of vowels etc - in
short, a metalinguistic awareness that objectifies the language to some
extent).
There was an orally transmitted Jewish tradition - which later became
written down and formalised as the Talmud. My understanding is that
there was enormous resistance to writing it down (even though the
literate tools existed) because the oral tradition was highly valued as
a way ensuring that 'law' was seen as something to be discussed,
interpreted and reinterpreted - i.e., it was required to be
transmitted, but understood as something that needed to be constantly
reinvented in order to be valid. But even this law still needed to be
memorised and, as such, objectified.
Probably no help to you, but helped me to think through the idea of
'maintaining culture by voice alone'.
Helen
On 18/10/2011, at 11:33 PM, Andy Blunden wrote:
Well, I think that, even though I have a
technical objection, this avenue does not offer me a definitive proof.
Were I to rely on the argument that "a people removed from their land
requires a written language in order to maintain their culture," then
the Hmong people would offer a counterexample, even if the Jews did
not, having the Old Testament, etc.
I need another argument (if one exists) to show why cultural memory
requires an enduring material culture, and the limits to what can be
maintained by voice alone.
thanks for that Eric.
Andy
ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
Andy:
My understanding of how the Hmong written language was created was more
for transmitting information from the public schools to Hmong families
that did not read english. However, now that the Hmong are into their
second and even third generation of living in St. Paul they do utilize
this written language and it appears on shop windows and billboards,
but still the most prominent place that I see it is in correspondence
from the schools to families.
eric
From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
<xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Date: 10/17/2011 09:25 PM
Subject: Re: [xmca] Cultural memory
Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
So in this case of an indigenous people retaining cultural practices
for
a generation after being removed from their land, it turns out that
they
*created* a written language to do it!
Andy
ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
> Yes, exactly the cultural practices are transmitted from adults to
> children via the extremely strong ties to what has been practiced
for
> generations. An example is that the Hmong have a very strong
belief
> in spirits and that bad luck befalls a family as a result of
spiritual
> unbalance in a family member or in the belongings of the family;
many
> cultural practices revolve around appeasing these "bad spirits",
very
> common to see Hmong children wearing strings tied around their
wrists
> to off evil or to keep their 'souls' in spiritual balance. Also
if a
> Hmong child is born with a disability then the family takes it on
as
> their personal burden and are very reluctant to seek outside
assistance.
>
> It is also interesting that since the Hmong have lived in St. Paul
for
> 40 plus years now that a written language has emerged as a result
of
> schools efforts to illicit support from families in the
educational
> process. However, it is interesting that Hmong cultural practices
> believe that the child is sent to the expertise of the teacher and
it
> is not for the parents to interfere in the education of their
child.
>
> By the way Clint Eastwood directed and starred in a fabulous movie
> called "Grand Torino" that has a strong influence of Hmong culture
> incorporated into the plot.
>
>
> If this has already been posted to XMCA please forgive the double
posting
>
> eric
>
>
>
> From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> To: ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org
> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
<xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> Date: 10/17/2011 11:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Cultural memory
> Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Yes, that is interesting, Eric. Do you know *how* they do it? Is
it just
> by how they raise their children?
> Andy
>
> ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
> > Hey Andy:
> >
> > I don't know if this is exactly in line with what you are
thinking but
> > in St. Paul there is a large population of Hmong (mountain
people of
> > Laos) that have transplanted here. They did not have a
written
> > language but their cultural are still extremely strong
(marriage at a
> > young age, long drawn out funerals, tending animals (I have
been to
> > houses in St. Paul where chickens are kept in the house),
gardening.
> > Is this along the lines of your thinking?
> >
> > eric
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
<xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > Date: 10/14/2011 06:54 PM
> > Subject: [xmca] Cultural memory
> > Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> >
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> > I need some help. I am having a discussion with a supporter
of Robert
> > Brandom, who was at ISCAR, but is not an Activity Theorist.
on the
> > question of cultural memory.
> >
> > One of my criticisms of Robert Brandom is that he does not
theorise any
> > place for mediation in his theory of normativity. He supposes
that norms
> > are transmitted and maintained down the generations by word
of mouth
> > (taken to be an unmediated _expression_ of subjectivity), and
artefacts
> > (whether texts, tools, buildings, clothes, money) play no
essential role
> > in this.
> >
> > I disagree but I cannot persuade my protagonist.
> >
> > I challenged him to tell me of a (nonlierate) indigenous
people who
> > managed to maintain their customs even after being removed
from their
> > land. My protagonist responded by suggesting the Hebrews, but
of course
> > the Hebrews had the Old Testament. Recently on xmca we had
the same
> > point come up and baseball culture was suggested, and I
responded that I
> > didn't think baseball-speak could be maintained without
baseball bats,
> > balls, pitches, stadiums, radios, uniforms and other
artefacts used in
> > the game.
> >
> > Am I wrong? Can anyone point to a custom maintained over
generations
> > without the use of arefacts (including land and texts as well
as tools,
> > but allowing the spoken word)?
> >
> > Andy
> > --
> >
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *Andy Blunden*
> > Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
> > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
<http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
<http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> > Book:
http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
> <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>>
> > <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
> <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>>>
> >
> > __________________________________________
> > _____
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
>
> --
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
<http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
<http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
> <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>>
>
> __________________________________________
> _____
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
<http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
__________________________________________
_____
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
__________________________________________
_____
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
__________________________________________
_____
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
Tony Whitson
UD School of Education
NEWARK DE 19716
twhitson@udel.edu
_______________________________
"those who fail to reread
are obliged to read the same story everywhere"
-- Roland Barthes, S/Z (1970)
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