Well, I think that, even though I have a technical objection, this
avenue does not offer me a definitive proof. Were I to rely on the
argument that "a people removed from their land requires a written
language in order to maintain their culture," then the Hmong people
would offer a counterexample, even if the Jews did not, having the Old
Testament, etc.
I need another argument (if one exists) to show why cultural memory
requires an enduring material culture, and the limits to what can be
maintained by voice alone.
thanks for that Eric.
Andy
ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
Andy:
My understanding of how the Hmong
written
language was created was more for transmitting information from the
public
schools to Hmong families that did not read english. However, now
that the Hmong are into their second and even third generation of
living
in St. Paul they do utilize this written language and it appears on
shop
windows and billboards, but still the most prominent place that I see
it
is in correspondence from the schools to families.
eric
From:
Andy Blunden
<ablunden@mira.net>
To:
"eXtended Mind,
Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Date:
10/17/2011 09:25 PM
Subject:
Re: [xmca] Cultural
memory
Sent by:
xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
So in this case of an indigenous people retaining
cultural practices for
a generation after being removed from their land, it turns out that
they
*created* a written language to do it!
Andy
ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
> Yes, exactly the cultural practices are transmitted from adults to
> children via the extremely strong ties to what has been practiced
for
> generations. An example is that the Hmong have a very strong
belief
> in spirits and that bad luck befalls a family as a result of
spiritual
> unbalance in a family member or in the belongings of the family;
many
> cultural practices revolve around appeasing these "bad spirits",
very
> common to see Hmong children wearing strings tied around their
wrists
> to off evil or to keep their 'souls' in spiritual balance. Also
if a
> Hmong child is born with a disability then the family takes it on
as
> their personal burden and are very reluctant to seek outside
assistance.
>
> It is also interesting that since the Hmong have lived in St. Paul
for
> 40 plus years now that a written language has emerged as a result
of
> schools efforts to illicit support from families in the
educational
> process. However, it is interesting that Hmong cultural practices
> believe that the child is sent to the expertise of the teacher and
it
> is not for the parents to interfere in the education of their
child.
>
> By the way Clint Eastwood directed and starred in a fabulous movie
> called "Grand Torino" that has a strong influence of Hmong
culture
> incorporated into the plot.
>
>
> If this has already been posted to XMCA please forgive the double
posting
>
> eric
>
>
>
> From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> To: ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org
> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
<xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> Date: 10/17/2011 11:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Cultural memory
> Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Yes, that is interesting, Eric. Do you know *how* they do it? Is
it
just
> by how they raise their children?
> Andy
>
> ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
> > Hey Andy:
> >
> > I don't know if this is exactly in line with what you are
thinking
but
> > in St. Paul there is a large population of Hmong (mountain
people
of
> > Laos) that have transplanted here. They did not have a
written
> > language but their cultural are still extremely strong
(marriage
at a
> > young age, long drawn out funerals, tending animals (I have
been
to
> > houses in St. Paul where chickens are kept in the house),
gardening.
> > Is this along the lines of your thinking?
> >
> > eric
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture,
Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > Date: 10/14/2011 06:54 PM
> > Subject: [xmca] Cultural memory
> > Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> >
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> > I need some help. I am having a discussion with a supporter
of
Robert
> > Brandom, who was at ISCAR, but is not an Activity Theorist.
on
the
> > question of cultural memory.
> >
> > One of my criticisms of Robert Brandom is that he does not
theorise
any
> > place for mediation in his theory of normativity. He supposes
that norms
> > are transmitted and maintained down the generations by word
of
mouth
> > (taken to be an unmediated _expression_ of subjectivity), and
artefacts
> > (whether texts, tools, buildings, clothes, money) play no
essential
role
> > in this.
> >
> > I disagree but I cannot persuade my protagonist.
> >
> > I challenged him to tell me of a (nonlierate) indigenous
people
who
> > managed to maintain their customs even after being removed
from
their
> > land. My protagonist responded by suggesting the Hebrews, but
of course
> > the Hebrews had the Old Testament. Recently on xmca we had
the
same
> > point come up and baseball culture was suggested, and I
responded
that I
> > didn't think baseball-speak could be maintained without
baseball
bats,
> > balls, pitches, stadiums, radios, uniforms and other
artefacts
used in
> > the game.
> >
> > Am I wrong? Can anyone point to a custom maintained over
generations
> > without the use of arefacts (including land and texts as well
as tools,
> > but allowing the spoken word)?
> >
> > Andy
> > --
> >
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *Andy Blunden*
> > Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
> > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
<http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> > Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
> <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
> > <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
> <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>>
> >
> > __________________________________________
> > _____
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
>
> --
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
<http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
> <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
>
> __________________________________________
> _____
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
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