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Re: [xmca] ISCAR (review) Perezhivanie + vivencia

Dear Andy, thank you.
IF Erlebnis the german word, as you say, can not just be translated as "Self-regulated psychological system of personality", you are right in your remarks about a perhaps wrong use of the word. 

...

Unity is the word Fernando used in his note.

...

Erlebnis: I would translate it as something which is lived and experienced.
The question is, who has this "Erlebnis". An individual or an individual mind, or a collective.
You can say; The concert was a great "Erlebnis" for the audience, the town, and for every single human in the audience, and on the scene. 

...
In this way "Erlebnis" is not something in itself, if not it is experienced by someone. 

...
But, are you sure that is the right translation of perezhvianie, and even vivencia. For me it still seems to be - if I follow Fernando and Arias, that they mean that, which has, or structures the Erlebnis. 

...
and it is here, subjectivity, or a subjective sense field, or a self comes in as a "Self-regulated psychological system of personality", which is structuring that, someone or something (a community) er-leben? 

...

I hope it is ok, - here, with just some loose thoughts.

Volker


Den 01-10-2011 12:47, Andy Blunden skrev:
Volker, Vygotgsky says clearly enouigh that a /perezhivanie /is a unit (NB unit not unity) for analysis of development, but /what/ is this unit? That's the point. "Self-regulated psychological system of personality" does not answer the question; it's like answering the question "Who will be the next Pope" with "a suitable person." I understand from Gloria Quninones that the Spanish word /una vivencia/ has the same meaning as the Russian /perezhivanie /and my German friends tell me that /ein Erlebnis/ has the same meaning in German. The problem for English speakers is that Russian, Spanish and German has the word but English does not. The term is usually translated as "a lived experience" (though I like "an adventure"). Of course a lived experience is also a self-regulated psyhological system of personality, but to describe it so would seem to me to be misleading. If I am not mistaken /perezhivania /is an event or action, whereas "personality" and "system" do not carry the temporal connotation of event or action, and is both subjective and objective. 
What do you think?
Andy
Volker Bunzendahl wrote:

Hi Mike,
yes, for me

the phrase, "self-regulated
psychological system of personality,
sounds a bit constructivist, and maybe open for the road to Lewin and "systemic" approaches.
On the other hand Fernando says a few lines earlier: Perezhivanie emerged ... as a new unity for the analysis of development, which carries out the integration of cognitive and affective into a new qualitative system that characterizes human development.
Which for me opens the door to what Portes later in the book points out, and where Fernando says (page 47): /Subjectivity is not a reflection. Ii is a production that cannot be deduced from the external circumstances within which human actions take place./ 


...
I think I am not uncomfortable, - perhaps a word we perhaps not understand - yet - makes us communicate? But it would be nice to hear especially Russian speaking folks - what they are able to read into the word, and Fernando. 

Volker


Den 01-10-2011 03:10, mike cole skrev:

Fernando's text is at papers for discussion at xmca.

I am uncomfortable with the hugely broad range of definitions of
perezhivanie floating around. Isn't the phrase, "self-regulated
psychological system of personality," applicable to a large range of
phenomena?

mike
On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 12:00 PM, Volker Bunzendahl<volker@volker.dk>wrote: 


P.P. Portes&    S. Salas (ed.)(2011): /Vygotsky in
the 21st century society - advances in cultural historical theory and
praxis with non-dominant communities/, Peter Lang, New York



Den 26-09-2011 18:20, Joao skrev:


Volker and Mike, what is reference Rey and Arias texts?

thanks

João Martins


-----Original Message-----
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.**ucsd.edu<xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>] 
On
Behalf Of Volker Bunzendahl
Sent: segunda-feira, 26 de setembro de 2011 07:46
To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
Subject: Re: [xmca] ISCAR (review) Perezhivanie + vivencia

I have all the abstracts on a usb key, but I am not sure it is ok
(copyright) to lay them out here.

The article by Fernando in the Portes book, is very interesting
(revolutionary)!.
But, if Fernando or others can help: Rey; 2011:49: /Perezhivanie/ should 
be
understood as a self-regulated psychological system of personality.
In the next chapter in the book, Guillermo Arias (2011:57) introduces the concept of /vivencia/. He cites Vygotsky: Vivencia is the true dynamic 
unit
of conscience, and Arias explains: Vivencia is the basic functional unit 
of
the psychological, or the mind or subjectivity.

My question is, what is the relation between this two words, is
Perezhivanie
the more personal part of vivencia, or??

...

Anyway, it seems to me, that this focus on personality, subjectivity
questions is a very important matter: is it activity, or activity systems,
or vivencia, which it the unit, we start with. And is vivencia, in a way, 
an
activity system?
Arias, 2011:59: Marx's idea that the essence of human beings is social relations and not activity, or work only is very important. Indeed, social 

relations encompass work and other relationships (Marx&Engels, 1986).

...
The funny thing - in my mind - is, that the talk about actions research, 
and
here subjectivity get connected.
How?
I would like to find out, if Fernando - when he talks about sense, or when 

he cites A.A. Leontjev, using the term /sense field/, had Kurt Lewins
"Felt-Theorie", Field-Theory, in mind. - Vygotsky and Lewin met a few
times,
and as I see it, Vygotsky uses some of Lewins thoughts about the dynamics 
of
the social and the personal fields.

...

Volker

Den 24-09-2011 05:15, mike cole skrev:


Thanks Volker--
Fernando expressed an interest in having his paper in the Portes et al volume discussed at XMCA and I have a copy somewhere. I will post when 
possible.

Its odd you mention the AR-CHAT issue of MCA, Volker. I was hoping
there would be more discussion of the papers since we had access to all 
of


them.


Are you proposing that we post some more from that symposium or that
get Bella to send us her talk??

mike

On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 6:16 AM, Volker Bunzendahl<volker@volker.dk>


wrote:


second thoughts, part 3
symposium nr. 103: Testing the limits of CHAT in diverse contexts and 
global realities.

It was - for me - the highlight of the conference, where the topic,
subjectivity changed my way of being me, in the moment.
The room was filled up, people were sitting on the floor, - and Pedro Portes, Alex Kozulin, Luis C. Moll and - the most impressive of them all, - Fernando Gonzales Rey changed our view of looking at CHAT, at Vygotskys different working periods (moments) - and at the same time 
made theory practical, in questions about immigration and
non-dominant communities, about how there is no subjectivity without 
objectivity, that is our subjectivity is constructed by social


participation in cultures.
I will not, here, start a more detailed review of this symposium.

Instead I will show you a picture of the event, and I will point to
the book, which expands what this symposium was about.
The book is named: P.P. Portes& S. Salas (ed.)(2011): /Vygotsky in the 21st century society - advances in cultural historical theory and 
praxis with non-dominant communities/, Peter Lang, New York

This might be an answer to Mike,

Were there any discussions of the theory/practice relationship that
seemed

to you helpful?

But I think MCA, nr. 2, about action reseach and CHAT maybe
influenced me, . while I listened to Bella Kotiks speech.




Volker


Den 14-09-2011 00:20, Volker Bunzendahl skrev:



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  --

Volker Bunzendahl, Lektor
Cand.psych. og Konsulent

Arbejde:
Professionshøjskolen University College Nordjylland (UCN) Læreruddannelsen 
i
Aalborg - Efter/videreuddannelse Mylius Erichsens vej 131, 9210 Aalborg SØ 
Tlf: 98 14 02 00
Mobil: 28 73 46 20
Mail: volker@volker.dk

Privat:
Gammel Aalborgvej 16. 7741 Frøstrup
Privat: 86 96 46 14
Mobil: 28 73 46 20

Mail: volker@volker.dk
Home Page: volker.dk


Uddannelse i virkeligheden
University College Nordylland arbejder med uddannelse, udvikling og
innovation inden for fire hovedområder: det sundhedsfaglige, det
pædagogiske, det tekniske og business. UCN har ca. 7000 studerende på
erhvervsakademi- og professionsbacheloruddannelser**, over 9000 kursister 
og

studerende på efter- og videreuddannelse og ca. 750 ansatte.
University College of Northern Denmark works with education, development 
and
innovation within four main fields: healthcare, education, technology and 
business. We have approximately 7000 students in AP and BA degree
programmes, more than 9000 course participants and students undergoing 
continuing and further education and training. We have about 750
employees.

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_____
xmca mailing list
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--
Volker Bunzendahl, Lektor
Cand.psych. og Konsulent

Arbejde:
Professionshøjskolen University College Nordjylland (UCN)
Læreruddannelsen i Aalborg - Efter/videreuddannelse
Mylius Erichsens vej 131, 9210 Aalborg SØ
Tlf: 98 14 02 00
Mobil: 28 73 46 20
Mail: volker@volker.dk

Privat:
Gammel Aalborgvej 16. 7741 Frøstrup
Privat: 86 96 46 14
Mobil: 28 73 46 20

Mail: volker@volker.dk
Home Page: volker.dk


Uddannelse i virkeligheden
University College Nordylland arbejder med uddannelse, udvikling og
innovation inden for fire hovedområder: det sundhedsfaglige, det
pædagogiske, det tekniske og business. UCN har ca. 7000 studerende på
erhvervsakademi- og professionsbacheloruddannelser**, over 9000 kursister 
og studerende på efter- og videreuddannelse og ca. 750 ansatte.
University College of Northern Denmark works with education, development and innovation within four main fields: healthcare, education, technology 
and business. We have approximately 7000 students in AP and BA degree
programmes, more than 9000 course participants and students undergoing
continuing and further education and training. We have about 750 employees. 

______________________________**____________
_____
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
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--
Volker Bunzendahl, Lektor
Cand.psych. og Konsulent

Arbejde:
Professionshøjskolen University College Nordjylland (UCN)
Læreruddannelsen i Aalborg - Efter/videreuddannelse
Mylius Erichsens vej 131, 9210 Aalborg SØ
Tlf: 98 14 02 00
Mobil: 28 73 46 20
Mail: volker@volker.dk

Privat:
Gammel Aalborgvej 16. 7741 Frøstrup
Privat: 86 96 46 14
Mobil: 28 73 46 20

Mail: volker@volker.dk
Home Page: volker.dk


Uddannelse i virkeligheden
University College Nordylland arbejder med uddannelse, udvikling og innovation inden for fire hovedområder: det sundhedsfaglige, det pædagogiske, det tekniske og business. UCN har ca. 7000 studerende på erhvervsakademi- og professionsbacheloruddannelser, over 9000 kursister og studerende på efter- og videreuddannelse og ca. 750 ansatte.

University College of Northern Denmark works with education, development and innovation within four main fields: healthcare, education, technology and business. We have approximately 7000 students in AP and BA degree programmes, more than 9000 course participants and students undergoing continuing and further education and training. We have about 750 employees.

__________________________________________
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