Re: [xmca] FW: vygotsky in perspective

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

Thanks for the correction. As I wrote earlier, Professor Miller has a very
low opinion of my work.

Perhaps our colleague Carol MacDonald can forward the discussion to her
South African colleague. He was right on about there being a comic book
version of Vygotsky's ideas as we have seen here at XMCA. And his comments
concerning
the phenomenon of reading interpreters without reading the originals fits
right in
with local concerns about "drive by references."

With respect to the substance of the part of the text that you forwarded
before, what are your own views concerning the relation of internal to
external speech and sense to meaning. Do you think in these terms? Are there
traces of the word (meaning pole) in the (thought/sense pole)?
mike

On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 5:25 PM, Ivo Banaco <ibanaco@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Mike,
>
> These are not my words. It is an excerpt of the book that I've managed to
> get from http://www.cambridge.org
>
> I send in attachment the pdf file with the excerpt.
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 1:06 AM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks a LOT, Ivo. Very interesting.
>>
>> Could you help out with your final comment, because I really do not know
>> to
>> whom you are referring when you write:
>>
>> Written right at the end of his life, this text presents a number of new
>> ideas that do not fit comfortably into the standard Vygotsky mould. Here
>> he
>> pushes back further and deeper into the innermost functions of the human
>> mind and
>> makes provision for developmental processes that originate and move from
>> the inside to the outside. This may be a message that some contemporary
>> Vygotsky spokespersons would prefer to overlook.
>>
>> Could you please indicate who the spokespersons are and provide us some
>> references to help us fill out our understanding? Is this Norris Minnick?
>> I ask because what struck me in the footnote was a kind of echo of people
>> like John Lucy, who was also a close colleague of Jim Wertsch; the echo
>> I hear is the dialogue with Whorf.
>>
>> I interpret Vygotsky's use of the metaphor of e-vapor-ation in light of
>> recent reading
>> I have been doing of William James and the pragramatists in the book, *The
>> Metaphysical Club, *as well as  Tim Ingold using both Merleau-Ponty and
>> Gibson (Seems like a lot of people interested in M-P these days, I sure
>> am).
>> In "that context" the image that came to my mind was the environmental
>> flow
>> associated with movement (In Ingold/Gibson) or the stream of consciousness
>> metaphor that James
>> uses.
>>
>> I am guessing that what the editors might have been doing was preserving
>> some
>> vestige of sense, some vesiges of "pattern in the flow" that bespeaks the
>> presence
>> of the word.
>>
>> So, which spokespeople should we interrogate? Who might be made uneasy by
>> such a discussion and why?
>>
>> mike
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 4:23 PM, Ivo Banaco <ibanaco@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Following David take, this is an illustration of what this  "vygotsky in
>> > perspective" could be. The following is an excerpt of the introduction:
>> >
>> > The Collected Works and editorial comment
>> >
>> > The thought that editorial comment may be more intrusive than necessary
>> > arrived unannounced in my head while reading the chapter entitled
>> ‘Thought
>> > and word’ in Volume I of the Collected Works of L. S. Vygotsky (1987).
>> The
>> > editors have inserted a rather odd footnote in relation to an important
>> > passage in which Vygotsky is comparing inner speech and external speech.
>> > He makes the point that whereas inner speech is speech for oneself,
>> > external
>> > speech is for others and they are different in kind. The presence or
>> > absence
>> > of
>> > vocalization is a consequence of the functional differences between the
>> two
>> > kinds of speech. He continues the discussion as follows (p. 257):
>> > External speech is a process of transforming thought into word; it is
>> the
>> > materialization and objectivization of thought. Inner speech moves in
>> > the reverse direction, from without to within. It is a process that
>> > involves
>> > the evaporation of speech in thought. This is the source of the
>> structure
>> > of inner speech, the source of all that structurally differentiates it
>> from
>> > external speech.
>> > The editors’ footnote refers to the expression ‘evaporation of speech in
>> > thought’ and they comment as follows (p. 257):
>> > It is apparent from the context that in using the expression
>> ‘evaporation
>> > of speech in thought’, Vygotsky is referring to a qualitative change in
>> > the speech process with the act of thought, not to the disappearance of
>> > the word.
>> > The editors’ comment is odd for a number of reasons, not the least of
>> > which is that it does not seem to be correct. It is not clear what they
>> > mean
>> > by
>> > the ‘context’. From the surrounding sentences it does indeed seem that
>> > Vygotsky is referring to the disappearance of the word, and the same
>> seems
>> > to be the case going backwards and forwards in the paragraphs of the
>> text.
>> > In
>> > fact, towards the end of the chapter, Vygotsky returns to this point and
>> > again
>> > uses the same expression of the ‘evaporation of speech in thought’ and
>> he
>> > continues as follows (p. 280):
>> > However, where external speech involves the embodiment of thought in
>> > the word, in inner speech the word dies away and gives birth to thought.
>> > With the word dying away, in Vygotsky’s own words and context, the
>> > editors’ contrary claim that the word does not disappear seems dubious.
>> But
>> > the issue is not simply whether or not the editors are correct. The
>> > question
>> > arises of why the editors thought it necessary at this particular point
>> to
>> > assist
>> > the reader to understand the text given that this is not a translation
>> > matter or
>> > an editorial matter but a matter of interpretation that is usually, and
>> for
>> > good
>> > reason, left to the reader. The comment is odd because it attempts to
>> > explain
>> > the text by referring not to some hidden or additional information
>> > available
>> > to
>> > the editors, but to the very same text and context that the reader has
>> just
>> > encountered. If that context serves to give an expression a particular
>> > meaning
>> > then the reader should be able to ascertain this without any special
>> help
>> > from
>> > the editors. It is also odd because, on the one hand, it simply explains
>> > what the
>> > word ‘evaporate’ means (qualitative change) but, on the other hand,
>> tries
>> > to
>> > undo the meaning of the word. When water evaporates it changes its state
>> > from liquid to vapour (hence to e-vaporate) and, in the process, the
>> liquid
>> > does indeed disappear or, to use Vygotsky’s phrase, ‘dies away’. There
>> is
>> > no
>> > reason for us to assume that Vygotsky either did not understand the
>> meaning
>> > of the word ‘evaporate’ or that he was careless in his use of the word.
>> On
>> > the
>> > contrary, given that he later in the chapter uses the exact same
>> expression
>> > again
>> > and in the same context, it seems likely that he did know and appreciate
>> > what
>> > he was saying.4 If this is the case, then it would appear that it is the
>> > editors who
>> > are misreading the text and, perhaps, unintentionally misusing their
>> > editorial
>> > authority by stamping a particular interpretation of their own on the
>> text.
>> > Written right at the end of his life, this text presents a number of new
>> > ideas that
>> > do not fit comfortably into the standard Vygotsky mould. Here he pushes
>> > back
>> > further and deeper into the innermost functions of the human mind and
>> > makes provision for developmental processes that originate and move from
>> > the inside to the outside. This may be a message that some contemporary
>> > Vygotsky spokespersons would prefer to overlook.
>> >
>> > On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 12:03 AM, David Kellogg <
>> vaughndogblack@yahoo.com
>> > >wrote:
>> >
>> > > I think there are really two DIFFERENT issues here, and they can be
>> > easily
>> > > separated even though they are of course also connected. One issue is
>> > > translation, and the other is interpretation.
>> > >
>> > > They are both real problems. Here's page 47 of the Collected Works.
>> > > Vygotsky (and maybe Luria) are talking about the famous mediational
>> > > triangle, and "X" marks the mediational spot:
>> > >
>> > > "The mediating member, as one might imagine, is simply a method of
>> > > improving and perfecting the operation, having the specific function
>> of
>> > > retrograde effect."
>> > >
>> > > And here's the same sentence on p. 145 of the Vygotsky Reader:
>> > >
>> > > "The intermediate link in this formula is not, as might ahve been
>> > supposed,
>> > > simply a method of improving and perfecting the operation. By
>> possesing
>> > the
>> > > specific functions of reverse action..."
>> > >
>> > > One of these is not only wrong but terribly wrong (it's the first one,
>> in
>> > > case you were wondering). And it really does matter if we want people
>> to
>> > > take this stuff seriously.
>> > >
>> > > Interpretation is also a real problem, but it's a different problem.
>> If
>> > > there were really only one meaning, only one context in which Vygotsky
>> > makes
>> > > sense, then we could forget all about him and just go back to bed,
>> > perchance
>> > > to dream of the 1960s cognitive revolution where generalizations were
>> > > perhaps incorrect but at least makeable.
>> > >
>> > > But translation and interpretation are not just distinct; they are
>> also
>> > > linked. For example, the "mediational triangle" has usually been
>> expanded
>> > to
>> > > include different rules, communities, and divisions of labor. But in
>> > > addition to that this quotation, correctly translated, makes it clear
>> > that
>> > > it's the REVERSIBILITY of signs (that is, their DIRECT effect on the
>> > > SUBJECT) that gives them their psychological (and not simply their
>> > > sociological) properties.
>> > >
>> > > I think that putting "vygotsky in perspective" means going beyond
>> > invoking
>> > > the magical name in an incantatory way. But it also means going beyond
>> > > the usual academic game of killing the old prophet and annointing the
>> new
>> > > one with his blood.
>> > >
>> > > To me, it means translation for interpretation, two issues that are
>> > linked
>> > > because what we interpret does depend on how we translate, and
>> distinct
>> > > because context has to be fixed in one case and flexed in the other.
>> > >
>> > > I do hope they both matter. Lensky devoted the short, storm-tossed
>> years
>> > of
>> > > his not-so-brilliant genius to Olga, and I guess I  am going to devote
>> > the
>> > > long, grey years of my scintillating mediocrity to this.
>> > >
>> > > David Kellogg
>> > > Seoul National University of Education
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --- On Wed, 7/13/11, Peter Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > From: Peter Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu>
>> > > Subject: RE: [xmca] FW: vygotsky in perspective
>> > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> > > Date: Wednesday, July 13, 2011, 10:10 AM
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > The author is new to me:
>> > > Ronald Miller, University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa
>> > > Ronald Miller is Emeritus Professor in the School of Psychology at the
>> > > University of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa. His teaching and research
>> > > interests have been in the field of cognitive development with a
>> > particular
>> > > focus on learning and change, especially in relation to academic
>> literacy
>> > > and access to higher education, and he has been involved in the study
>> of
>> > > Vygotsky and Piaget's theories for over 30 years.
>> > >
>> > > Is anyone familiar with his work?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>> ]
>> > On
>> > > Behalf Of mike cole
>> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 12:53 PM
>> > > To: Anton Yasnitsky; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] FW: vygotsky in perspective
>> > >
>> > > Seriously Anton? I was asked to review the book but had to decline for
>> > > ethical reasons.
>> > >
>> > > I guess if this is as good as V&V  that checks me out of the game.  So
>> > far
>> > > as I can tell, people like Jim Wertsch and I were SO wrong, that
>> either
>> > we
>> > > were unbelievably stupid (in which case, what nefarious things did we
>> do
>> > to
>> > > be allowed to do any interpreting at all!?) or
>> > > we are just a bad lot. Or maybe both?
>> > >
>> > > As Peter says, it stops short of shooting!
>> > > mike
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 9:13 AM, Anton Yasnitsky <the_yasya@yahoo.com
>> > > >wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Thanks for posting this, Peter!
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > The book is an absolute and unconditional treasure, a mandatory
>> reading
>> > > for
>> > > > anybody interested in Vygotskian issues, and, I truly believe, it
>>  will
>> > > soon
>> > > > become a classic source, like van der Veer and Valsiner's (1991)
>> > > > "Understanding Vygotsky".
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > For those interested, some excerpts are available online @
>> > > >
>> > http://www.cambridge.org/aus/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=9781107001862
>> > > >
>> > > > Anton
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > ________________________________
>> > > > From: Peter Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu>
>> > > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 11:29:06 AM
>> > > > Subject: [xmca] FW: vygotsky in perspective
>> > > >
>> > > > I just got notice of a new book on LSV:
>> > > >
>> > > > Main Author:       Miller, Ronald, 1943-
>> > > >
>> > > > Title:             Vygotsky in perspective / Ronald Miller.
>> > > >
>> > > > Primary Material:  Book
>> > > >
>> > > > Subject(s):        Vygotskii, L. S. (Lev Semenovich), 1896-1934.
>> > > >                    Psychologists Soviet Union.
>> > > >                    Psychology Soviet Union History.
>> > > >
>> > > > Publisher:         Cambridge, UK ; New York : Cambridge University
>> > Press,
>> > > >                       2011.
>> > > >
>> > > > Description:       xiii, 451 p. : ill. ; 24 cm.
>> > > >
>> > > > Notes:             Includes bibliographical references and index.
>> > > >                    "Lev Vygotsky has acquired the status of one of
>> the
>> > > > grand
>> > > >                       masters in psychology. Following the English
>> > > > translation
>> > > >                       and publication of his Collected Works there
>> has
>> > > been
>> > > > a
>> > > >                       new wave of interest in Vygotsky accompanied
>> by a
>> > > >                       burgeoning of secondary literature. Ronald
>> Miller
>> > > > argues
>> > > >                       that Vygotsky is increasingly being 'read' and
>> > > >                       understood through secondary sources and that
>> > > > scholars
>> > > >                       have claimed Vygotsky as the foundational
>> figure
>> > > for
>> > > >                       their own theories, eliminating his most
>> > > distinctive
>> > > >                       contributions and distorting his theories.
>> Miller
>> > > > peels
>> > > >                       away the accumulated layers of commentary to
>> > > provide
>> > > > a
>> > > >                       clearer understanding of how Vygotsky built
>> and
>> > > >                       developed his arguments. In an in-depth
>> analysis
>> > of
>> > > > the
>> > > >                       last three chapters of Vygotsky's book
>> Thinking
>> > and
>> > > >                       Speech, Miller provides a critical
>> interpretation
>> > > of
>> > > > the
>> > > >                       core theoretical concepts that constitute
>> > > Vygotsky's
>> > > >                       cultural-historical theory, including the
>> > > development
>> > > > of
>> > > >                       concepts, mediation, the zone of proximal
>> > > > development,
>> > > >                       conscious awareness, inner speech, word
>> meaning
>> > and
>> > > >                       consciousness"--
>> > > >
>> > > > Table of Contents: Machine generated contents note: 1. Introduction;
>> 2.
>> > A
>> > > >                       thematic overview; 3. The development of
>> > concepts;
>> > > 4.
>> > > >                       The development of scientific concepts; 5. The
>> > > >                       development of scientific concepts: critique;
>> 6.
>> > > > Thought
>> > > >                       and word; 7. Michael Cole
>> > > >                    artifact mediated action: setting the record
>> > straight;
>> > > > 8.
>> > > >                       James V. Wertsch
>> > > >                    cultural tools and mediated action: getting it
>> > wrong;
>> > > 9.
>> > > >                       James V. Wertsch: mediation and the zone of
>> > > proximal
>> > > >                       development; 10. The essential commentators;
>> 11.
>> > > >                       Vygotsky: mediation.
>> > > >
>> > > > Location:          On Order for Stacks
>> > > > Call Number:       No call number available
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>> ================================================================================
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> > > > University of Georgia Libraries
>> > > > University of Georgia
>> > > > Jackson St.
>> > > > Athens, GA  30602
>> > > >
>> > > >
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