Re: [xmca] Folk Psychology from a narrative perspective

[Robert Lake <boblake@georgiasouthern.edu>]

Yes, I appreciate your comments as well Greg.

 I only have one thing to add and LSV might appreciate this.

My grand daughter was saying "It was an accident" when she was 3.  :-)

Robert

On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 11:17 AM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:

> An interesting elaboration of the idea of the retrospective construction of
> meaning, Greg. I had not thought about it in these terms before.
> mike
>
> On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 11:55 PM, Gregory Allan Thompson <
> gathomps@uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
> > Yes, and the insistence on ascribing motive to practice starts early. My
> > favorite is the parent that looks at his two year old who has just torn
> half
> > the pages out of a cherished book of his (substitute lipstick all over
> the
> > dining room table or paint on the new carpet) and chastises the child
> "Why
> > did you do that?" or better "What were you thinking?"
> >
> > As if the child has some complex motivation and thought behind what they
> > did. The child can only stare back in shock wondering what is happening.
> >
> > But there is important work being done in those ridiculous questions. Put
> > together enough of these moments and by the time they are 7 or so, they
> get
> > it - "It was an accident" and "I didn't mean to do it" become stock
> > responses regardless of what happened. And by 12 they have become nearly
> > fully competent at manipulating the situation, intentions and all, e.g.
> "I
> > was trying to help my sister... and...". For each event, they are able to
> > reconstruct a philosophy of the act, so to speak.
> >
> > -greg
> >
> > >
> > >------------------------------
> > >
> > >Message: 2
> > >Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 11:53:27 -0600
> > >From: "David H Kirshner" <dkirsh@lsu.edu>
> > >Subject: RE: [xmca] Folk Psychology from a narrative perspective
> > >To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > >Message-ID:
> > >       <731CECC23FB8CA4E9127BD399744D1EC02E0CDFD@email001.lsu.edu>
> > >Content-Type: text/plain;      charset="us-ascii"
> > >
> > >As with Tollefsen, who reviewed Hutto's book, I'm not quite sure what
> > >kinds of specialized narrative practices are supposed to be needed to
> > >establish our folk psychology's rational ascriptions. The ascription of
> > >motive to behavior is ubiquitous. Admittedly, it may take one a long
> > >time to get good at ascribing particular motives to particular actions.
> > >But our social/cultural frame demands such ascription, so presumably we
> > >all are going to get a lot of practice.
> > >
> > >It is one thing to look to narrative as a site for development of a
> > >particular cultural practice--the folk psychology ascription of
> > >motives--quite another to associate narrative with the fundamental
> > >process of enculturation, itself. My approach to enculturation does not
> > >take narrativization of one's identity as fundamental. That only kicks
> > >in in the specialized process of "acculturation"--intentional emulation
> > >of cultural practices to fulfill goals of cultural membership. But
> > >enculturation functions more fundamentally as a spontaneous adaption to
> > >the culture in which one is enmeshed.
> > >
> > >David
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> > >On Behalf Of Larry Purss
> > >Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 7:21 PM
> > >To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > >Subject: Re: [xmca] Folk Psychology from a narrative perspective
> > >
> > >Hi David Ke
> > >
> > >David
> > >Your distinction between history and narrative is interesting.  Do you
> > >think
> > >Bruner collapses the distinction. Hutto's framework on narratives is
> > >that
> > >they are forms of story-telling that give "reasons for actions" in terms
> > >of
> > >beliefs and desires which are the folk psychological frameworks that are
> > >culturally grounded frames of reference.  He suggests this form of
> > >explanation is socioculturally grounded.  My recollection of Bruner's
> > >work
> > >is he suggests it is one of the two basic forms of constructing meaning.
> > >Therefore, for Bruner, history would be a particular form of narrative.
> > >
> > >David, if Hutto's work interests you, I would also google his edited
> > >book
> > >"Folk Psychology Reassessed" which gives alternative theoretical
> > >approaches
> > >which are challenging the "theory theory" model and "simulation" model
> > >of
> > >folk psychology.  The edited volume situates Hutto's work in a larger
> > >stream
> > >of thought.
> > >
> > >On this topic of folk psycholgy I'm currently reading a book "Philosophy
> > >in
> > >the Flesh" by Lakoff & Johnson that posits BASIC or PRIMARY forms of
> > >cognition as fundamentally metaphorical. We imaginally compare a source
> > >concept to a target concept.   The SOURCE concept of these primary
> > >cognitive
> > >structures are ALWAYS based in our physical bodies. Lakoff & Johnson
> > >suggest
> > >from these primary metaphors more complex metaphorical meanings develop.
> > >If
> > >this perspective is accurate, then language is not the SOURCE of our
> > >most
> > >basic metaphors. The source is in the sensory-motor or somatic embodied
> > >cognition. Language expresses these basic metaphors.  If there is some
> > >merit
> > >in this position then education and developmental science should engage
> > >with
> > >basic primary metaphors as foundational in the emergence of cognitive
> > >capacity and in how these basic metaphors IMPLICITLY structure our folk
> > >psychology.
> > >
> > >>From this perspective of primary metaphor as embodied  it is not too
> > >big a
> > >step  to reflect on primary intersubjectivity as a precursor to
> > >secondary
> > >intersubjectivity.  I have a hunch these 2 constructs are intimately
> > >related.
> > >
> > >Larry
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 4:14 PM, David Kellogg
> > ><vaughndogblack@yahoo.com>wrote:
> > >
> > >> Wow--I have to get that book! Thanks, Larry.
> > >>
> > >> The way I understand David Kirshner's work is this: there is really
> > >only
> > >> ONE of the three meta-discourses in education that is narrative, at
> > >least
> > >> narrative in the sense of oriented towards the action of a hero in a
> > >problem
> > >> space who evaluates and achieves some kind of resolution.
> > >>
> > >> That's his THIRD meta-discourse, the one which sees education as a
> > >process
> > >> of becoming a participant, a member, a practioner and as mastering a
> > >> particular set of discourses that accompany membership.
> > >>
> > >> It seems to me that his first meta-discourse, which sees education as
> > >a
> > >> process of mastering skills, is not narrativist, because it focuses on
> > >> problem solutions and pretty much ignores the hero and the evaluation
> > >of the
> > >> problem space.
> > >>
> > >> His second meta-discourse, which sees education as a process of
> > >acquiring
> > >> conceptual knowledge, is not narrativist either, because it sees this
> > >> knowledge as being not embodied in a particular hero and because it
> > >sees the
> > >> knowledge as being quite separable from the solution of problems.
> > >>
> > >> I don't think this means that DHK would consider the third
> > >meta-discourse
> > >> the most complete. I think it's only the most complete if we view it
> > >from a
> > >> narrativist point of view, and that is no coincidence, since it
> > >co-evolved
> > >> with a lot of Bruner's work.
> > >>
> > >> I have a question about the difference between narrative and history
> > >(as in
> > >> "cultural historical"). It seems to me that everything we say about
> > >> narrative (its structure, it's "I-ness" and even its past-to-present
> > >> orientation) is radically UNTRUE of history (because history is not
> > >> structured around heroes in problem spaces, it is not "I" shaped, and
> > >it is
> > >> oriented present-to-past). Why, then, do people of our peculiar
> > >historical
> > >> epoch treat the two as synonymous?
> > >>
> > >> David Kellogg
> > >> Seoul National University of Education
> > >>
> > >> --- On Wed, 1/26/11, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> From: Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
> > >> Subject: [xmca] Folk Psychology from a narrative perspective
> > >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > >> Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2011, 2:38 PM
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> I have attached a book review for others interested in a perspective
> > >on
> > >> folk
> > >> psychology that assumes a perspective inspired by Jerome Bruner's work
> > >on
> > >> narrative practices,  Hutto is positing a 2nd person dialogical
> > >grounding
> > >> for understanding "reasons for actions"  He suggests this mode of
> > >> understanding is most pronounced when actions are unpredictable.
> > >Hutto
> > >> suggests there are other more direct embodied forms of recognition and
> > >> engagement that are not narrative based.
> > >>
> > >> I see some affinity in this perspective to David Kirschner's approach
> > >to
> > >> learning theory as narrative based genres.
> > >>
> > >> Larry
> > >>
> > >> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
> > >>
> > >>
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-- 
*Robert Lake  Ed.D.
*Assistant Professor
Social Foundations of Education
Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
Georgia Southern University
P. O. Box 8144
Phone: (912) 478-5125
Fax: (912) 478-5382
Statesboro, GA  30460

 *Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and education is its
midwife.*
*-*John Dewey.
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