RE: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...

[Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>]

Thank you very much, Mike.

I only didn't understand that important difference in volume 6 - English version (the one that I have is from 1999) and the Russian itself (1984)

SUBORDINATE and very IMPORTANT *object of analysis*
X
ПОДЛИННЫЙ и ВАЖНЕЙШИЙ *объект анализа*,

Except "subordinate" in English is not as "subordinado" in Portuguese...


That unity ("newly born"), action-perception-speech is one important object of analysis, among others, or it is the more important at this ontogenetic moment? Even I suspect this "unity" is not a "unity of analysis" because if it is the "object of analysis", how can a process be at the same time the object of analysis and the own unity to understand this own object??? For me this unity seems to be something more like a "functional unity" (not exactly in posterior Luria's sense for the 3 functional unities, of course) or better "inter-functional unity" -- maybe this "unity" can be called only a new "functional system" more precisely... among others... action and speech, ok... but why only this two plus "perception"... can not be "action-speech-attention", "action-speech-thinking", "action-speech-will"???? In this case the not fidel "subordinate" could be even better than the Russian 1984... Please point my mistake in this way of reasoning...


Achilles.



Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 08:13:59 -0700
Subject: Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...
From: lchcmike@gmail.com
To: achilles_delari@hotmail.com

I think that the 1984 is from something luria had in Russian or these "young" guys could not have translated it into English, but I am unsure. 
mike

On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 10:27 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:






Sure, 

my question is because can happens situations in which a Russian edition is translation from a English original publication wrote in English by the own Russian authors. Then... I am curious about the source of the 1984's Russian edition... If it is published from some "original" manuscripts from 1930 or translated based in your american English version, published in the "Vygotsky Reader"s version... it is all...


. For instance the is a text from Vygotsky originally publishede in English about Thought and Schizophrenia... that I guess there is no Russian original version anymore. Spite this must be Russian versions today, translated from the English I presume... There is no such situations???


Achilles.

**************


> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 15:05:13 -0700
> Subject: Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...

> From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> 

> Well, I can confirm that they are from the same source because I got this
> from Luria and my copy had a couple of his hand written changes in the
> translation on it.
> 
> It is supposed to have been written for an American publication, but was not

> published.
> 
> I have been told by the parties involved that Peter Tulviste and Kolya
> Goldberg translated the version I saw. Peter has moved on to more important
> things and Kolya was rumored to be in Poland at a Neuropsych conf. (And i

> could be misinformed, and so could anyone, given the complex circumstances
> between 1930 and 1977!!).
> mike
> 
> On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 12:39 PM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <bella.kotik@gmail.com

> > wrote:
> 
> > Unfortunately that I do not know for sure
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 8:58 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:

> >
> > >
> > > Thank you Bella, this is what I had suposed...But this Russian from Tom 6
> > > is really from the1930 version, do you confirm?
> > > Thank you very much.Achilles.

> > >
> > > > Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 19:05:33 +0300
> > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...
> > > > From: bella.kotik@gmail.com

> > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > >
> > > > but the "inculcation of the laws of the visual field"  does not

> > > correspond
> > > > to
> > > > ..."перестройка законов зрительного поля"
> > > > which is reorganization of the laws(or rules) of the visual field
> > > > so both translations are far from ideal

> > > >
> > > > n Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 6:01 PM, Elina Lampert-Shepel <
> > ellampert@gmail.com
> > > >wrote:

> > > >
> > > > > Hi, Achills,
> > > > > I am in a rush to get into the airport, so please forgive me for a
> > > quick
> > > > > analysis.The first sentence is fine in both translations. But I agree

> > > with
> > > > > you, Readers' version is more adequate in the second sentence.
> > "Genuine
> > > and
> > > > > the most important..." would be closer to the original from my point

> > of
> > > > > view. I think this is important in understanding of Vygotsky's
> > concept
> > > of
> > > > > the unit of analysis of specifically human forms of behavior.  "Real,

> > > > > reality" are very rare words in Vygotsky's writing.
> > > > >
> > > > > Elina
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >

> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 5:49 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:

> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi, XMCA
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Changing subject.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I had noted that we have (at least) two versions from this book

> > "Tool
> > > and
> > > > > > sign" (Luria and Vygotsky, 1930[?]), in English... In this simple
> > > quote
> > > > > > bellow I can see something not so irrelevant very different, see

> > > please:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I - IN THE "VYGOTSKY READER"'S VERSION:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > “These observations lead us to the conclusion

> > > > > > that the child solves a practical task with the help of not only
> > eyes
> > > and
> > > > > > hands, but also speech. This newly born unity of perception, speech

> > > and
> > > > > > action,
> > > > > > which leads to the inculcation of the laws of the visual field,
> > > > > constitutes
> > > > > > the REAL and VITAL *object of analysis* aimed at studing the origin

> > > > > > of specifically human forms of behavior” (I had a notice that this
> > > > > version
> > > > > > was passed from Luria for Michael Cole in past, is this information

> > > > > correct,
> > > > > > Mike? - then I don't know who was the translator... maybe Luria
> > > himself?)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >

> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > II - IN THE "COLLECTED WORKS" (VOLUME 6) - version:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >

> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > “These observations bring us to the conclusion
> > > > > > that the child solves a practical problem not only with his eyes

> > and
> > > > > hands,
> > > > > > but
> > > > > > also with the help of speech. The unity of perception that has
> > > developed,
> > > > > > of

> > > > > > speech and action, which leads to a re-organization of the signs of
> > > the
> > > > > > visual
> > > > > > field, also makes up a SUBORDINATE and very IMPORTANT *object

> > > > > > of analysis* directed toward the study of the origin of
> > specifically
> > > > > > human forms of behavior." (p.
> > > > > > 15 – translated from Russian by Marie J. Hall)

> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > III - IN THE RUSSIAN VERSION (VOLUME 6):
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Эти наблюдения наталкивают нас на вывод, что ребенок решает

> > > практическую
> > > > > > задачу не только с помощью глаз и рук, но' и с помощью речи.
> > > Возникшее
> > > > > > единство восприятия, речи и действия, которое приводит к

> > перестройке
> > > > > законов
> > > > > > зрительного поля, и составляет ПОДЛИННЫЙ  и  ВАЖНЕЙШИЙ  *объект
> > > анализа*,
> > > > > > направленного на изучение происхождения специфически человеческих

> > > форм
> > > > > > поведения."
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ***************************************

> > > > > >
> > > > > > Well, its ok - (A) ПОДЛИННЫЙ 1.
> > > > > > (не
> > > > > > поддельный)
> > > > > > authentic; genuine; (на копия) original    2. (истинный) true,

> > real;
> > > and
> > > > > > (B)   2) ВАЖНЕЙШИЙ   1.
> > > > > > превосх. ст. см. важный 1  2.
> > > > > > (главный) major, paramount   важнейшая проблема —

> > > > > > major problem... It seems that the Readers' version is more
> > adequate,
> > > is
> > > > > > not it? Even so I have a doubt about the sources... This Russian

> > > version
> > > > > is
> > > > > > not translated from the English version supposed given for Cole by
> > > Luria,
> > > > > is
> > > > > > it? (for instance, because the original manuscripts were lost, or

> > > > > something
> > > > > > like this?). Somebody can tell me, in addition, if the English
> > > version of
> > > > > > the Reader was wrote/provided by Luria himself? Vygotsky and

> > Vygotsky
> > > > > wrote
> > > > > > originally in Russian, or in English for international publication
> > > > > trying???
> > > > > >

> > > > > > This things are so clear. Spite the more important is to know that
> > > "newly
> > > > > > born unity" is an important "object of analysis" and not exactly a

> > > > > > "subordinate an very important"... (its ok). But to know something
> > > about
> > > > > > translations is useful because the two English versions are not so

> > > > > > congruent. If this newly born unity was subordinate, what was
> > > > > > supra-ordinate?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank you, very much.

> > > > > >
> > > > > > Achills.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _________________________________________________________________

> > > > > > QUER ANEXAR VÁRIAS FOTOS NUM EMAIL? PREPARE-SE PARA O NOVO HOTMAIL.
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> > > > >
> > >
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> > > > > >
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> > > > >

> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one end of it
> > > and
> > > > > it
> > > > > responds. It is free. But it's not free to do what a violin string is

> > > > > supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it, fix it in my violin
> > > and
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> > > string.

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> > > > --
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> > > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
> > >
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> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
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