RE: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...

[Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>]

Thank you Bella, this is what I had suposed...But this Russian from Tom 6 is really from the1930 version, do you confirm?
Thank you very much.Achilles.

> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 19:05:33 +0300
> Subject: Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...
> From: bella.kotik@gmail.com
> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> 
> but the "inculcation of the laws of the visual field"  does not correspond
> to
> ..."перестройка законов зрительного поля"
> which is reorganization of the laws(or rules) of the visual field
> so both translations are far from ideal
> 
> n Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 6:01 PM, Elina Lampert-Shepel <ellampert@gmail.com>wrote:
> 
> > Hi, Achills,
> > I am in a rush to get into the airport, so please forgive me for a quick
> > analysis.The first sentence is fine in both translations. But I agree with
> > you, Readers' version is more adequate in the second sentence. "Genuine and
> > the most important..." would be closer to the original from my point of
> > view. I think this is important in understanding of Vygotsky's concept of
> > the unit of analysis of specifically human forms of behavior.  "Real,
> > reality" are very rare words in Vygotsky's writing.
> >
> > Elina
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 5:49 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Hi, XMCA
> > >
> > > Changing subject.
> > >
> > > I had noted that we have (at least) two versions from this book "Tool and
> > > sign" (Luria and Vygotsky, 1930[?]), in English... In this simple quote
> > > bellow I can see something not so irrelevant very different, see please:
> > >
> > >
> > > I - IN THE "VYGOTSKY READER"'S VERSION:
> > >
> > > “These observations lead us to the conclusion
> > > that the child solves a practical task with the help of not only eyes and
> > > hands, but also speech. This newly born unity of perception, speech and
> > > action,
> > > which leads to the inculcation of the laws of the visual field,
> > constitutes
> > > the REAL and VITAL *object of analysis* aimed at studing the origin
> > > of specifically human forms of behavior” (I had a notice that this
> > version
> > > was passed from Luria for Michael Cole in past, is this information
> > correct,
> > > Mike? - then I don't know who was the translator... maybe Luria himself?)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > II - IN THE "COLLECTED WORKS" (VOLUME 6) - version:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > “These observations bring us to the conclusion
> > > that the child solves a practical problem not only with his eyes and
> > hands,
> > > but
> > > also with the help of speech. The unity of perception that has developed,
> > > of
> > > speech and action, which leads to a re-organization of the signs of the
> > > visual
> > > field, also makes up a SUBORDINATE and very IMPORTANT *object
> > > of analysis* directed toward the study of the origin of specifically
> > > human forms of behavior." (p.
> > > 15 – translated from Russian by Marie J. Hall)
> > >
> > >
> > > III - IN THE RUSSIAN VERSION (VOLUME 6):
> > >
> > > "Эти наблюдения наталкивают нас на вывод, что ребенок решает практическую
> > > задачу не только с помощью глаз и рук, но' и с помощью речи. Возникшее
> > > единство восприятия, речи и действия, которое приводит к перестройке
> > законов
> > > зрительного поля, и составляет ПОДЛИННЫЙ  и  ВАЖНЕЙШИЙ  *объект анализа*,
> > > направленного на изучение происхождения специфически человеческих форм
> > > поведения."
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ***************************************
> > >
> > > Well, its ok - (A) ПОДЛИННЫЙ 1.
> > > (не
> > > поддельный)
> > > authentic; genuine; (на копия) original    2. (истинный) true, real; and
> > > (B)   2) ВАЖНЕЙШИЙ   1.
> > > превосх. ст. см. важный 1  2.
> > > (главный) major, paramount   важнейшая проблема —
> > > major problem... It seems that the Readers' version is more adequate, is
> > > not it? Even so I have a doubt about the sources... This Russian version
> > is
> > > not translated from the English version supposed given for Cole by Luria,
> > is
> > > it? (for instance, because the original manuscripts were lost, or
> > something
> > > like this?). Somebody can tell me, in addition, if the English version of
> > > the Reader was wrote/provided by Luria himself? Vygotsky and Vygotsky
> > wrote
> > > originally in Russian, or in English for international publication
> > trying???
> > >
> > > This things are so clear. Spite the more important is to know that "newly
> > > born unity" is an important "object of analysis" and not exactly a
> > > "subordinate an very important"... (its ok). But to know something about
> > > translations is useful because the two English versions are not so
> > > congruent. If this newly born unity was subordinate, what was
> > > supra-ordinate?
> > >
> > >
> > > Thank you, very much.
> > >
> > > Achills.
> > >
> > >
> > >
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