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Re: [xmca] "Tool and sign" - translation questions...
but the "inculcation of the laws of the visual field" does not correspond
..."перестройка законов зрительного поля"
which is reorganization of the laws(or rules) of the visual field
so both translations are far from ideal
n Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 6:01 PM, Elina Lampert-Shepel <firstname.lastname@example.org>wrote:
> Hi, Achills,
> I am in a rush to get into the airport, so please forgive me for a quick
> analysis.The first sentence is fine in both translations. But I agree with
> you, Readers' version is more adequate in the second sentence. "Genuine and
> the most important..." would be closer to the original from my point of
> view. I think this is important in understanding of Vygotsky's concept of
> the unit of analysis of specifically human forms of behavior. "Real,
> reality" are very rare words in Vygotsky's writing.
> On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 5:49 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> email@example.com> wrote:
> > Hi, XMCA
> > Changing subject.
> > I had noted that we have (at least) two versions from this book "Tool and
> > sign" (Luria and Vygotsky, 1930[?]), in English... In this simple quote
> > bellow I can see something not so irrelevant very different, see please:
> > I - IN THE "VYGOTSKY READER"'S VERSION:
> > “These observations lead us to the conclusion
> > that the child solves a practical task with the help of not only eyes and
> > hands, but also speech. This newly born unity of perception, speech and
> > action,
> > which leads to the inculcation of the laws of the visual field,
> > the REAL and VITAL *object of analysis* aimed at studing the origin
> > of specifically human forms of behavior” (I had a notice that this
> > was passed from Luria for Michael Cole in past, is this information
> > Mike? - then I don't know who was the translator... maybe Luria himself?)
> > II - IN THE "COLLECTED WORKS" (VOLUME 6) - version:
> > “These observations bring us to the conclusion
> > that the child solves a practical problem not only with his eyes and
> > but
> > also with the help of speech. The unity of perception that has developed,
> > of
> > speech and action, which leads to a re-organization of the signs of the
> > visual
> > field, also makes up a SUBORDINATE and very IMPORTANT *object
> > of analysis* directed toward the study of the origin of specifically
> > human forms of behavior." (p.
> > 15 – translated from Russian by Marie J. Hall)
> > III - IN THE RUSSIAN VERSION (VOLUME 6):
> > "Эти наблюдения наталкивают нас на вывод, что ребенок решает практическую
> > задачу не только с помощью глаз и рук, но' и с помощью речи. Возникшее
> > единство восприятия, речи и действия, которое приводит к перестройке
> > зрительного поля, и составляет ПОДЛИННЫЙ и ВАЖНЕЙШИЙ *объект анализа*,
> > направленного на изучение происхождения специфически человеческих форм
> > поведения."
> > ***************************************
> > Well, its ok - (A) ПОДЛИННЫЙ 1.
> > (не
> > поддельный)
> > authentic; genuine; (на копия) original 2. (истинный) true, real; and
> > (B) 2) ВАЖНЕЙШИЙ 1.
> > превосх. ст. см. важный 1 2.
> > (главный) major, paramount важнейшая проблема —
> > major problem... It seems that the Readers' version is more adequate, is
> > not it? Even so I have a doubt about the sources... This Russian version
> > not translated from the English version supposed given for Cole by Luria,
> > it? (for instance, because the original manuscripts were lost, or
> > like this?). Somebody can tell me, in addition, if the English version of
> > the Reader was wrote/provided by Luria himself? Vygotsky and Vygotsky
> > originally in Russian, or in English for international publication
> > This things are so clear. Spite the more important is to know that "newly
> > born unity" is an important "object of analysis" and not exactly a
> > "subordinate an very important"... (its ok). But to know something about
> > translations is useful because the two English versions are not so
> > congruent. If this newly born unity was subordinate, what was
> > supra-ordinate?
> > Thank you, very much.
> > Achills.
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Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
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