From: Andy Blunden
<ablunden@mira.net>
To: "eXtended Mind,
Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Sent: Thursday, 21
February 2013, 2:42:52
Subject: Re: [xmca]
Perezhivanie and Dewey's concept of experience
Larry,
I have been ruminating over these questions overnight,
and Carol is of course right, that I cannot get away with claiming that
"meaning" is a gerund, or at least that Vygotsky consistently uses
"meaning" as part of the verb form "to mean" in "Thinking and Spech."
Indeed, I am inclined now to think that Mike's comment to Carol: "Now
how do we make sense of that, Carol?" was a beautiful piece of irony
from an expert communicator to an expert linguist. For the way I wanted
to bend the meaning of meaning in Vygoysky is more akin to how Vygotsky
uses the word "sense".
I turn to Chapter 7 of "T&S"
http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/words/Chapter7.doc
(p. 276, or search for "several zones") and I see that Vygotsky talks
about "sense" much as I want to use "concept" but he seems to regard it
as a psychic structure, but at the same time I cannot make sense of
what he is saying other than as "activity." And when he says "Isolated
in the lexicon the word has only one meaning," I can only make sense of
this as a plea *not* to take meaning in that way? I find the only way
to make sense of LSV's use of words is to allow that the meanings were
simply unavailable to him and he had to do the best he could.
Continuing this investigation of Chapter 7, go to page
252 (or search for "grammatical category") and let's look at how LSV
uses the word "category"! The rich etymology of this word is somewhat
reflected in how Vygotsky uses it. According to the Oxford English
dictionary, "category" dertives from the Greek kategoria, which means
predication, or assertion, or accusation. It's meaning kind of branched
off between philosophy - actually the sense in which Vygotsky seems to
be using it, and which is the common or garden meaning, more or less -
and rhetoric, see Wikipedia on "Apologetics" - in which kategoria and
apologia are a pair of opposites. These words were used for
respectively the prosecution and defence in the trial of Socrates,
und9oubtedly also a rich source of development, albeit somewhat
conflictual. But I think the meaning Vygotsky uses here is
"predication" and he talks of the difference between grammatical
category and psychological category, more or less how the words which
come out of your mouth in good syntax only approximate the concept
which is being realised in the words. He says:
"Thus, correspondence between the grammatical and
psychological
structure of speech may be encountered less
frequently than we
generally assume. Indeed, it may merely be
postulated and rarely if
ever realized in fact. In phonetics, morphology,
vocabulary, and
semantics - even in rhythm, metrics, and music - the
psychological
category lies hidden behind the grammatical or
formal category. If
the two appear to correspond with one another in one
situation, they
diverge again in others. We can speak not only of
the psychological
elements of form and meaning, not only of the
psychological subject
and predicate, but of psychological number, gender,
case, pronouns,
superlatives, and tenses."
but then, at last, to give some reply to your
question, Larry, he adds:
Thus, what is a mistake from the perspective of
language, may have
artistic value if it has an original source.
and quotes some lines of poetry from Pushkin.
I'm still struggling to make sense of this. :) I think
Dewey's conceptions here are as close to LSV's as you can get, while
remaining within the thinking of two different people working in two
different contexts.
Andy
Larry Purss wrote:
> Andy,
> Your comment:
> I don't deny that "meaning" has taken on a
certain usage and is widely taken to be the attribute of a word or
phrase and found in a dictionary, but I think as a scientist I prefer
to see such things as objectifications of the primary source which is
human speech/speaking. I think the same distinctions can be discovered
in perezhivanija, experiences and so on.
> As a scientist what do you think of Dewey's
understanding that science is the handmaiden of aesthetics [which means
an intensifying experience of life]
> On page 16, Tom Leddy in the Stanford article
Mike sent translates Dewey's understanding of being TRULY alive:
> "Rather than giving art primacy in aesthetic,
Dewey believes that humans only feel properly alive when absorbing the
aesthetic FEATURES of nature. Aesthetic experience of the natural
environment can even take the FORM of *ecstatic communion*. This is
due to ancient habits gained in the relations between the living being
and its environment. Sensuous experience can absorb into itself
meanings and values that are DESIGNATED 'ideal' or 'spiritual'. Dewey
observes that belief that nature is full of spirits is closely tied to
POETRY. The sensuous surfaces of things INCORPORATE not only what is
given to the senses but the most profound INSIGHT. Many of the arts
ORIGINATE in primitive rituals which were not simply intended as means
to get rain, etc. but for the ENHANCEMENT OF THE EXPERIENCE. Similarly
myth was not just an early form of science." [Leddy, p.16]
> Andy, as a scientist, are the practises of
science intended to creatively and ideally participate in the
reenchantment of the world?.
> Ivo introducing Gendlin, notions of vivencia,
Merleau Ponty's notion of *singing thw world* all are invitations
addressing us to imagine the rhythmical flow and pulsing of life
reenchanted. Modernity may have been a *wrong turn* and we are in a
*revolution* [not as turning away from history but as a returning to
history] Ancient Greece often is returned to in philosophy. Why?
Because the texts of that epoch were expressing the experience of
intensified life. It was an aesthetic epoch.
> Just thinking out loud but hopeing to
participate in further *minding* and *eventing* as "collaborative
projects" of revolution and return.
> Larry
>
>
>
>
> The distinction is not quite the grammatical
one, is it Carol?
> Meaning can be a noun and still be the name of
an attribute of a
> symbol or artefact. "Attribute" is a noun. And
it can still be a
> gerund, as a kind of noun, derived from the
verb "to mean". So if
> "I meant to help you when I said that," "my
meaning was to be
> helpful," with "meaning" here being the gerund
referring to my
> speech act. I don't deny that "meaning" has
taken on a certain
> usage and is widely taken to be the attribute
of a word or phrase
> and found in a dictionary, but I think as a
scientist I prefer to
> see such things as objectifications of the
primary source which is
> human speech/speaking. I think the same
distinctions can be
> discovered in perezhivanija, experiences and
so on.
>
> Andy
>
> mike cole wrote:
>
> Now how do we make sense of that, Carol?
> :-)
> mike
>
>
> No Andy, "meaning" is principally a
noun of long standing,
> ossified. There are loads of examples
of noun/verb pairs.
> Sent via my BlackBerry from Vodacom -
let your email find you!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 13:39:57
> Mind, Culture,
>
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Perezhivanie and
Dewey's concept of
> experience
>
> Yes, the use of "Thought" in lieu of
"Thinking" and
> "Language" instead
> of "Speaking" is famous and widely
recognised, but I have
> found that
> while noting this, people often stick
to "meaning" as the
> attribute of a
> symbol rather than the gerund of an
action verb.
>
> Andy
>
> mike cole wrote:
> > Not that the same "verbifying"
can be found in "Thought and
> Language"
> > vs "Thinking and Speech." Kind of
like Ivo's Dewey
> > and Dilthey......
> >
> > Makes international discussion
about perezhivanie/experience
> > an interesting exercise!
> >
> > mike
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 5:02 PM,
Andy Blunden
> >
> > Oh I see!
> > It has always amused me how
George Lakoff in his list
> fundamental
> > human actions/relations which
provide the foundation for
> language,
> > along with travelling,
handling objects, containers,
> and spatial
> > position, he includes guns and
war. I have taken this as
> > indicative of the nature of
life in the land of the
> free. So in
> > this case I took
"double-barrelled" to mean as in
> > "double-barrelled shot gun"! I
had never thought of
> the cooper's
> > barrel in this context.
> >
> > And yes, the facility of
English with its "ing" to
> turn a
> process
> > verb into a noun can be
annoying, if you get my
> meaning, but the
> > English language is undergoing
a movement in the reverse
> direction
> > in recent decades, with more
and more action-nouns (like
> "impact")
> > being used as verbs. This
seems to be a legacy of
> the culture in
> > which James and Dewey were
philosophising.
> >
> > Andy
> >
> > mike cole wrote:
> >
> > A barrel, as used in this
context, usually
> refers to a
> wooden or
> > metal tube/container that
is "solid." It is
> unchanging over
> > significant periods of a
human life span.
> >
> > Zaporozhets reminds us,
somewhere, that as we are
> groping the
> > environment with bodies,
the environment is
> groping us. And
> > given the "ing" in
groping, its not a noun, its
> a process
> > occurring over
> >
> > time.
> >
> > Perhaps that is not
useful. I have temporality
> on the brain,
> > so to speak.
> >
> > mike
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at
4:02 PM, Andy Blunden
> >
> > I don't understand
your allusion to
> temporality, Mike.
> > Andy
> >
> > mike cole wrote:
> >
> > Those are both
terrifically useful
> passages to
> think with,
> > Larry and Andy.
Thanks. I (so to speak)
> really
> > resonate to the
> > notion of
rhythmicity and movement in
> the first
> > passage, and
> > the "doublebarrel"
metaphor in the second. I
> think for the
> > latter that
> > barrel is perhaps
unfortunate in so far
> as "two-way"
> > /temporality/
> > is backgrounded.
> >
> > thanks!
> > mike
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 19,
2013 at 7:22 AM, Andy
> Blunden
> >
> > What about
this one Larry?
> >
> >
‘Experience’ is what James
> called a
> > double-barreled
> > word. Like
> > its
congeners, life and
> history, it
> > includes /what/
> > men do and
> >
suffer, /what/ they strive
> for, love,
> > believe and
> > endure, and
> > /how/
men act and are acted
> upon, the
> ways
> > in which
> > they do and
> >
suffer, desire and enjoy,
> see, believe,
> > imagine –
> > in short,
> >
processes of /experiencing/.
> ... It is
> > ‘double-barreled’
in
> > that
> > it
recognizes in its primary
> integrity no
> > division
> > between act
> > and
material, subject and
> object, but
> > contains them
> > both in an
> >
unanalyzed totality. ‘Thing’ and
> ‘thought’, as
> > James says
> > in the
> > same
connection, are
> single-barreled;
> they
> > refer to
> > products
> >
discriminated by reflection
> out of
> primary
> > experience (1929
> > PJD:
> > 256-7).
> >
> > Andy
> >
> >
> > Larry Purss
wrote:
> >
> > Mike,
> >
> > On page 12
of the article on
> Dewey's
> > notionotion of
> > experience
the theme
> > of
experience AS
> > "life
overcomes and transforms
> factors of
> > opposition to
> > achieve
higher
> >
significance. Harmony and
> equilibrium
> are the
> > resullts
> > not of
> > mechanical
> > processes
but of RHYTHMIC
> resolution of
> > tension. The
> > rhythmic
> > ALTERNATION
> > within the
live creature BETWEEN
> unity and
> > disunity
> > becomes
> > CONSCIOUS
in
> > humans.
Emotion signifies BREAKS in
> > experience which
> > are then
> > resolved
> > through
reflective action"
> >
> > I thought
this may be a way in to
> *start* the
> > conversational
> > dialogue
with
> >
perezhivanie.
> >
> > Larry
> >
> > On Mon,
Feb 18, 2013 at 5:55 PM,
> Larry Purss
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> >
Michael, Mike:
> > One
more fragment on the
> definition of
> > sentipensante:
> >
> >
Sentipensante pedagogy offers a
> transformative
> > vision of
> >
education that
> >
emphasizes the harmonic,
> complementary
> > relationship
> >
between the sentir of
> >
intuition and the pensar of
> intellect and
> > scholarship;
> >
between teaching and
> >
learning; between formal
> knowledge and
> > wisdom; and
> > between
> >
Western and
> >
non-Western ways of knowing.
> >
> > Seems
to have some family
> resemblance to
> > this theme of
> >
experience
> > Larry
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On
Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 5:37 PM,
> Larry Purss
>
> >
> >
> >
Mike,
> >
Thanks for this.
> >
Stanford Pub is a wonderful
> resource.
> > I seem to
> >
download an author
> >
approximately once a
> month. For
> $10 you
> > support them
> >
and get the articles
> >
sent in a PDF format.
> >
> >
Michael , here is a link [in
> Spanish]
> > to a youtube
> >
video of Orlando
> >
Fals-Borda discussing his
> understanding of
> > experience
> >
from the heart.
> > If
you have any articles
> in English
> > which you can
> >
share, this seems to be
> >
exploring experience
> within "felt
> > awareness".
> >
Seems to be a fascinating
> expansion of the
> >
understanding of experience.
> >
> >
Thanks, Michael and Mike
> >
> >
Larry
> >
> > On
Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at
> 3:46 PM,
> mike cole
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks Larry. Viva la
differencia. Here is
> > a quick
> >
summary of Dewey on
> >
experience. Note
> that his ideas
> > are considered
> >
unusual by the author.
> >
That
> >
Stanford pub seems
> very useful.
> >
mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
On Mon, Feb 18, 2013
> at 3:08 PM,
> > Larry Purss
>
> >
> >
> >
wrote:
> >
> >
> > Michael,
> >
I also found
> this site
> for Orlando
> > Fals Borda.
> >
> >
If it is off topic
> please ignore.
> > However, it
> >
is where my
> curiosity was
> >
called or invited.
> >
> >
Larry
> >
> >
On Mon, Feb 18,
> 2013 at
> 11:40 AM,
> > Glassman,
> >
Michael <
> >
>
> >
> >
> >
> > wrote:
> >
Perhaps
> > another avenue to
> >
explore might be
> Ortega y
> > Gasset's
> > ideas on
> >
experience
> (which is
> > probably in
> > some ways
> >
reflective
> of Dewey)
> >
> > which was
> >
> > appropriated by
Orlando Fals Borda
> > in the
> >
concept of
> vivencia -
> >
> > which is
> >
> > very compelling
- and became an
> > important
> >
part of
> Fals-Borda's
> >
> > conception
> >
> > of Participatory
Action Research.
> > This
> >
might then
> tie back
> to the
> >
> > earlier
> >
> > issue on
PAR.
> >
> >
Michael
> >
> >
________________________________________
> >
From:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > behalf
> >
> >
> >
> >
Sent: Monday,
> February 18,
> > 2013
> > 2:28 PM
> >
To: Beth Ferholt
> >
Cc: Galina
> Zuckerman; John
> > Shotter; Boris
> >
Meshcheryakov; eXtended
> >
> > Mind,
> >
> > Culture,
Activity; James Wertsch;
> >
Alexander
> Asmolov
> >
Subject: Re:
> [xmca]
> > Perezhivanie and
> >
Dewey's
> concept of
> experience
> >
> >
Thanks Beth--
> >
> >
I ask, firstly,
> because there
> > appear quite
> >
clear
> overlaps as
> you and
> >
> > Monica
> >
> > have been
exploring.
> >
> >
Secondly, we
> have two
> > submissions
> > to MCA
> >
on
> perezhivanie that are
> >
> > very
> >
> > focused on
Russian authors. Over
> > and above
> >
competing
> >
exegeses of
> the ideas of
> > Vygotsky,
> >
Puyzerei,
> etc., it seems
> > important
> >
> > that
> >
> > we figure
out ways to explore
> > different
> >
ways of thinking
> about the
> >
> > general
> >
> > category
of "experience" that will be
> >
productive
> of new
> > empirical and
> >
theoretical
> investigation.
> >
> >
mike
> >
> >
On Mon, Feb
> 18, 2013 at
> > 9:42 AM, Beth
> >
Ferholt
> >
> >
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > Monica
and I have just started
> > using
> >
the two
> concepts in
> >
> >
conjunction,
> >
> > as
> >
> > we
write about the relation
> > between
> >
play and
> learning and
> > Dewey's
> >
> > ideas
> >
> > on
> >
> >
the relation between
> art and
> > science
> >
in Art and
> Experience.
> > I am
> >
> > very
> >
> > interested
in any ref. you
> > find as I
> >
have
> found none
> yet. Can I
> >
> > ask why
> >
> > you
> >
> >
ask now? Beth
> >
> >
> >
On Mon,
> Feb 18, 2013
> > at 6:09
> > PM, mike
> >
cole
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > Has
anyone written on uses
> > of the
> >
term
> perezhivanie
> > as used
> > in the
> >
cultural
> >
historical
> > tradition and
> > Dewey's
> >
concept of
> experience?
> >
> >
references?
> >
> > mike
> >
> >
__________________________________________
> >
_____
> >
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> list
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
--
> >
Beth Ferholt
> >
Assistant Professor
> >
School
> of Education
> >
Brooklyn
> College, City
> > University of
> >
New York
> >
2900
> Bedford Avenue
> >
Brooklyn, NY
> 11210-2889
> >
> >
Email:
> >
> >
> >
> >
Phone: (718)
> 951-5205
> >
Fax:
> (718) 951-4816
<tel:%28718%29%20951-4816>
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> > Home Page:
> >
> >
> >
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