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Re: [xmca] Francois Cooren
Peter,
The large-scale trends and perspectives of society are formed by vast numbers of people, over many generations. Those who are deaf or who cannot speak are influenced by large-scale movements just as we all are. Instead of looking for wrenches to throw into the works of what I am saying, how about taking seriously the questions I am suggesting? These "exceptions" you bring up do not disprove the rule. In fact, they are not even exceptions. That you use them in that way shows that you do not understand - perhaps, do not want to understand - . I don't mean to be rude, but this apparent lack being motivated by authentic questions is appalling and leads to endless counterproductive intellectual wheel-spinning. Playing what seems to be the current academic game by keeping one's nose in statements of those from long ago and fruitlessly picking through, with a fine tooth comb their works, looking for some kind of guidance, is not what questers of understanding do! May I suggest that you and your colleagues give yourselves more credit than that, that you consider your questions without any preconceptions with which you do not really agree. Start from the beginning again and proceed carefully, taking each step only when you are sure you are on solid ground so that you are not misled by conventional wisdom. This brings to mind the forever search for a cure by the American Cancer Society. There's much money to be made searching for high-tech treatments and not from simple and accessible actual cures. How many can join in your discussions? The rarified vocabulary and references you engage with doesn't seem to facilitate your understanding, but rather exclusivises your dialog and insulates academics from the participation of the public at large. I mean no insult, only candid expression.
Joseph
On Jun 9, 2012, at 3:34 AM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote:
> I don't want to get too bogged down in this discussion, but I've been watching Stephen Hawkings' Into the Universe on the Discovery channel <http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/stephen-hawking/>. Hawking has virtually no muscle-moving capacity--only his eyes, as far as I can tell. His speech is produced through a computer, and it sounds like a generic phone answering machine's voice, i.e., mechanical, clunky, disjointed. Not too pretty. But what he says is pretty important.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Joseph Gilbert
> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 4:04 AM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Francois Cooren
>
> Huw,
> So I may know what your position is; do you agree that the sounds of our speech, simply as sounds, removed from words, affect us? If so, how?
>
> Joseph
>
> On Jun 5, 2012, at 3:06 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote:
>
>> On 5 June 2012 22:43, Joseph Gilbert <joeg4us@roadrunner.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Huw,
>>> I am referring to the influence upon persons by the deep structure of
>>> spoken-word language - the relationship between the sounds of words
>>> and that to which they refer -. The personal intellectual activity
>>> that some participate in, using words as thinking facilitators, is
>>> the realm of the few, the ones who have the time and motivation to do
>>> so, not the majority of those of us who are struggling to make ends
>>> meet. The harassed masses typically do not have much perceived
>>> opportunity to engage in "extracurricular" activities.
>>> The affect upon us of our language is automatic and constant,
>>> while the understandings we achieve by our deliberate reasoning comes
>>> to us only by our efforts.
>>> I am not arguing against free will, but rather saying that
>>> whatever impinges on our perspective, - especially whatever impinges
>>> strongly on it -, should not be unknown to us. For our survival, we
>>> need to understand human culture.
>>>
>>> Joseph
>>>
>>>
>> This belongs under a separate email thread, Joseph.
>>
>> Have you looked at Halliday's writing? "The Language of Early Childhood"
>> covers Haliday's consideration of developmental functions in language
>> use which may be a good point of departure for advocating your own
>> line of inquiry.
>>
>> Huw
>>
>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 5, 2012, at 5:26 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote:
>>>
>>> On 5 June 2012 04:56, Joseph Gilbert <joeg4us@roadrunner.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Huw:
>>>>> Seems I was misunderstood. The fact that there are deaf people does
>>>>> not make a fly in the ointment. The culture is established by those
>>>>> who do hear, - the 99.99% -. How do you imagine/think spoken-word
>>>>> language influences human world-view?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I imagine that one acquires a skill in construing, which is
>>>> reflected in questions, that one learns an etiquette: one learns how
>>>> to cultivate a curiosity in self and others.
>>>>
>>>> Greg,
>>>>
>>>> Re your Montreal question, did you have any thoughts around the
>>>> distribution of appreciating different problems in the process of
>>>> emerging roles? On a smaller, and perhaps simpler, scale I recall
>>>> situations where problems had been setup for children to stumble
>>>> upon, but that were seemingly not registered by them. A difficult
>>>> problem left standing would amount to... what? A conversation and vocabulary around site boundaries?
>>>>
>>>> The suggestion that 'communication is the "site and surface" of
>>>> organizations' seems productive, though I'm not taking this as
>>>> comprehensive, rather as a reference to communicational exchange. If
>>>> we want to be comprehensive then I think we need to include the
>>>> organisational behaviour within the circumference of communication.
>>>>
>>>> Huw
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Joseph
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jun 4, 2012, at 5:01 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> They're of no consequence for those deaf to reason. ;)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Huw
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4 June 2012 10:53, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And here's about deaf-blind people:
>>>>>>> http://www.marxists.org/****archive/meshcheryakov/****
>>>>>>> awakening/index.htm<http://www.marxists.org/**archive/meshcheryak
>>>>>>> ov/**awakening/index.htm>
>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.marxists.org/**archive/meshcheryakov/**awakening/index.
>>>>>> htm<http://www.marxists.org/archive/meshcheryakov/awakening/index.
>>>>>> htm>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Peter Smagorinsky wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> According to Gallaudet University (which is for deaf people),
>>>>>>>> http://research.gallaudet.edu/****Demographics/deaf-US.php<http:
>>>>>>>> //research.gallaudet.edu/**Demographics/deaf-US.php>
>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://research.gallaudet.edu/**Demographics/deaf-US.php<http://r
>>>>>>> esearch.gallaudet.edu/Demographics/deaf-US.php>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> There are a number of listings of deaf people of influence, e.g.,
>>>>>>>> http://www.start-american-**
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> sign-language.com/famous-deaf-****people.html<http://sign-languag
>>>>>>> e.com/famous-deaf-**people.html>
>>>>> <
>>>>> http://www.start-american-**sign-language.com/famous-deaf-**people.
>>>>> html<http://www.start-american-sign-language.com/famous-deaf-people
>>>>> .html>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.op97.org/teach-****learn/documents/****PeopleWhoAreDeaf
>>>>>> .pdf<http://www.op97.org/teach-**learn/documents/**PeopleWhoAreDea
>>>>>> f.pdf>
>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.op97.org/teach-**learn/documents/**PeopleWhoAreDeaf.pd
>>>>>>> f<http://www.op97.org/teach-learn/documents/PeopleWhoAreDeaf.pdf>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/****List_of_deaf_people<http://en.wik
>>>>>> ipedia.org/wiki/**List_of_deaf_people>
>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**List_of_deaf_people<http://en.wiki
>>>>>>> pedia.org/wiki/List_of_deaf_people>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.deafpeople.com/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.**
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ucsd.edu<xmca-bounces@weber.**ucsd.edu
>>>>>>> <xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>]
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Behalf Of Joseph Gilbert
>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 6:12 PM
>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Francois Cooren
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Peter,
>>>>>>>> What percentage of any population is deaf and what influence do
>>>>>>>> they exert upon the world-view of their society?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Joseph
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Jun 3, 2012, at 3:00 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I also wonder, what about deaf people?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Behalf Of Vera John-Steiner
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 5:54 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity'
>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [xmca] Francois Cooren
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Joseph
>>>>>>>>> I wonder whether the ultimate finality of the word--"everything
>>>>>>>>> is relative to the word"--provides a too narrow, monistic view.
>>>>>>>>> Euclidean geometry is rich in proofs which are presented
>>>>>>>>> through
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> visual
>>>>>
>>>>>> abstraction. These can be explained verbally but their persuasive
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> power is
>>>>>
>>>>>> visual.
>>>>>>>>> This is an interesting though wandering discussion from toes to
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Euclid.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Vera
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Behalf Of Joseph Gilbert
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 3:32 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Francois Cooren
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nothing communicates as profoundly as vocal sounds, - motions
>>>>>>>>> of the human body -. Everything is named, - identified -, by
>>>>>>>>> sounds made by
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>
>>>>>> body. Our own body-emotional goings on is the currency by which
>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> else is
>>>>>
>>>>>> valued. We relate to our world with our word.
>>>>>>>>> Everything is reletive to the word. The "final word" on
>>>>>>>>> anything IS
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>> word.
>>>>>>>>> The only handle we have on the meaning of our world is the
>>>>>>>>> effect on
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> us
>>>>>
>>>>>> of the sounds of our words. We can prove nothing and can only feel
>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>>> vocal sounds for information of how we are affected by things.
>>>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> takes
>>>>>
>>>>>> different words to communicate different information. Bear in mind
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>
>>>>>> words are fundamentally sounds and secondarily, referential tools.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When we
>>>>>
>>>>>> refer to a thing, the referential tool is between ourselves and
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> thing.
>>>>>
>>>>>> We perceive and are affected by the tool - the word - first and
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> foremost
>>>>>
>>>>>> and then also by the thought of the referred-to thing.
>>>>>> Subliminally,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>> word defines the thing:
>>>>>>>>> Consciously, the thing defines the word.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Joseph Gilbert
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Jun 2, 2012, at 8:59 PM, Greg Thompson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Anyone out there know much about Francois Cooren or the
>>>>>>>>> Montreal
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> School
>>>>>
>>>>>> of Organizational Communication?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As for the former, Cooren's book Action and Agency in Dialogue asks:
>>>>>>>>>> "What if human interactants were not the only ones to be
>>>>>>>>>> considered, paraphrasing Austin (1962), as "doing things with
>>>>>>>>>> words"? That is,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> what if
>>>>>
>>>>>> other "things" could also be granted the status of agents in a
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> dialogical
>>>>>
>>>>>> situation?"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As for the latter, the MSOC is characterized by wikipedia as:
>>>>>>>>>> "taking communication as the "site and surface" of
>>>>>>>>>> organizations, meaning that the latter emerge from and are
>>>>>>>>>> maintained by
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> communication
>>>>>
>>>>>> processes."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Both of these seem to be very important points that, I
>>>>>>>>>> thought, articulate well with recent XMCA conversations.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Anyone have any insight?
>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps a recommendation?
>>>>>>>>>> -greg
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>>>>>>>>>> Sanford I. Berman Post-Doctoral Scholar Laboratory of
>>>>>>>>>> Comparative
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Human
>>>>>
>>>>>> Cognition Department of Communication University of California,
>>>>>> San
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Diego
>>>>>
>>>>>> http://ucsd.academia.edu/****GregoryThompson<http://ucsd.academia.
>>>>>> edu/**GregoryThompson>
>>>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://ucsd.academia.edu/**GregoryThompson<http://ucsd.academia
>>>>>>>>> .edu/GregoryThompson>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> ______________________________****____________
>>>>>>>>>> _____
>>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/****listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.
>>>>>>>>>> edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca>
>>>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>>> /mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****____________
>>>>>>>>> _____
>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/****listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.e
>>>>>>>>> du/mailman/**listinfo/xmca>
>>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/
>>>>>>>> mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****____________
>>>>>>>>> _____
>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
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>>>>>>>>> du/mailman/**listinfo/xmca>
>>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/
>>>>>>>> mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****____________
>>>>>>>>> _____
>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
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>>>>>>>>> du/mailman/**listinfo/xmca>
>>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/
>>>>>>>> mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ______________________________****____________
>>>>>>>> _____
>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/****listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.ed
>>>>>>>> u/mailman/**listinfo/xmca>
>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/m
>>>>>>> ailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ______________________________****____________
>>>>>>>> _____
>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/****listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.ed
>>>>>>>> u/mailman/**listinfo/xmca>
>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/m
>>>>>>> ailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> ------------------------------****----------------------------**-
>>>>>>> -**
>>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>>>>>> Joint Editor MCA:
>>>>>>> http://www.tandfonline.com/****toc/hmca20/18/1<http://www.tandfon
>>>>>>> line.com/**toc/hmca20/18/1>
>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.tandfonline.com/**toc/hmca20/18/1<http://www.tandfonlin
>>>>>> e.com/toc/hmca20/18/1>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>>>>>>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ______________________________****____________
>>>>>>> _____
>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/****listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>> /mailman/**listinfo/xmca>
>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/ma
>>>>>> ilman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ______________________________**____________
>>>>>> _____
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>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/ma
>>>>>> ilman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________**____________
>>>>> _____
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>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________**____________
>>>> _____
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>>>> man/listinfo/xmca>
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>>>
>>> ______________________________**____________
>>> _____
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>>> an/listinfo/xmca>
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