------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
*To:* "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
*Sent:* Friday, 7 October 2011, 6:41:32
*Subject:* Re: [xmca] adverbial qualified movement, action, being
Haydi, I'm not sure if I quite understand you, so forgive me please if
my response misses the point. I think maybe you are frustrated at the
emphasis on personal deevelopment in a time when mass action and
transformation is urgently required for the survival of the world.
**No , not really ! I wanted to refer to the PHILOSOPHY OF
INDIVIDUALISM , the greatly-blessed fruit of capitalistic formation ,
which has been institutionalized , praised , worshiped , in the West .
I wanted to refer to the DEMARXIZATION OF MARX even while they resort
to him . I wanted to refer to the idea that in a search of one of the
biggest libraries of the West , there were 157 entries of Vygotsky but
none of Leontyev or Luria . I wonder why you wish the blossoming of
the springs in the Middle East but forget about the idea that this
equals the strengthening of the State of Israel . Is Zionism , for you
, the same as the "Open Society" of Karl Popper ? ...and why is it
that some people who have not been able to find their own way to
victory , instead of thinking and planning for themselves , should
seek help from the most terrific armed to the teeth of alien powers
and international gendarmes ? Were not these same powers who did their
most to topple Vygotsky's Motherland ? **
Let
me pose the question I was asking about (though really I was just
seeking to better understand vivencia and perezhivanie) in terms of
problems in Iran.
**If perezhivanie is not to give up and continue your finding a way to
happiness (relief / catharthis) , ok , good lesson for all struggling
people and I should add that i was just reading Leontyev . He refers
to a hedonistic way of life and condemns it ; says your grief or
happiness ultimately refers to the goal of the activity you've chosen
for yourself . Remember the child of Vygotsky who cried bitterly
because he had solved the problem apparently but deep in his
conscience he felt disappointed because he had made a trick . And
doesn't this motto teach us : Resort to your own powers ; don't seek
help from the Evils ; you do understand , by Evils , I mean
Multinationals and their military arsenals , Nato . **
About one year ago there were huge demonstrations in
Iran and many young people were killed or bashed by thugs supporting the
regime. Sometimes experiences like this harden people's resolve and the
resistance gets bigger, further repression only increases the people's
anger. The 1979 Revolution was like that, until the air force refused to
fire on the people any more.
**You've guessed and displaced my homeland unawaringly , Andy . But as
far as I know and from what the mass media said at the time , it was
Hoiser or Hauser who was on an evil mission to the Region not the
People . Even if we suppose this is not an artificial spring but a
genuine one , the Evil succeeded in averting the direction of the
movement to the benefit of the State of Zionism . The point is it's
people whether soldiers or common people and their dear homelands who
are victimized because , at this juncture of the time , West needs
Militarization and Oil more than ever before . Think plz of the
double standards with respect to the different countries in the region
so that you will better understand the Evil is on a very CRUEL mission
. **
We are hoping that this will happen in
Syria, and the Arab Spring will blossom there too. But sometimes it
doesn't. "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger." Sometimes it does
kill you. What are the factors which were missing which allowed all the
sacrifice by young people a year (or so) ago to fail to lead to the
downfall of the regime? I don't know. But these questions can only be
solved by CHAT or something like CHAT. Because it is about people's
feelings and thoughts as well as about cultural and historical changes
affected masses of people.
**My point was a chat which is against CHAT disarms you . I gave my
reasons for this . And we are not to label CHAT any kind of chat . **
Marx said: "Both for the production on a mass scale of this communist
consciousness, and ... the alteration of men on a mass scale is,
necessary, ... a revolution;
**On facebook I saw CHAT from Volker before his active participation
on xmca recently ; did not know him or had forgotten all about him . I
put a question which is now readable there : I wonder which of the
letters / words is the most important . He answered : Activity ! It's
activity which produces the others of the WORD . Now revolution in
what ? Revolution occurs when all other means , as you're also
referring to , have proved futile . I also remember Lenin's .
I was referring to what kind of dialogue and from what source . Again
, "ANY" dialogue from "any" source ? **
this revolution is necessary, therefore,
not only because the ruling class cannot be overthrown in any other way,
but also because the class overthrowing it can only in a revolution
**NOT OF TALK AS ACTION OR NEGOTIATION INSTEAD OF ACTION**
succeed in ridding itself of all the muck of ages and become fitted to
found society anew."
**On the whole , I was dragged to this kind of discussion but , in
fact , the direction of my talk was something else . shortly , I
wanted to say PHILOSOPHY AND SCIENCE (SOCIAL) are also biased !! And
here I see it quite necessary to give my deep apologies to dear Larry
. Mine was general not specific !! **
What do you think, Haydi?
Andy
Haydi Zulfei wrote:
> Andy,
>
> [[you ask if it is what we "make" of an experience that is
determinative if it
>
> is "vital". I would suggest that the term how we "participate"
rather than
>
> "make" is central to exploring "vital experience". Making is one
particular
>
> approach to engaging vital experience. This is a vital experience that
>
> transforms the individual person's orientation within the world.
This is an
>
> agentive response that has the quality of being a "personal"
decision. I
>
> would like to suggest this is one particular way to intergrate "vital
>
> experience in our proceeding along pathways. I would even suggest
this may
>
> be the particular way forward that is biased as an approach within
modernity
>
> as an ethical way of life.
>
> >From this perspective "vital experience" can be personally
"undergone" and
>
> through struggle and courageously exploring of personal inscapes the
person
>
> can change direction and "make" something different of their lives
>
> [develop] ]]
>
> Dear all
>
> This is part of a message by dear Larry . I've been to this forum
for long . i get confused reading the passage . i ask myself where the
reason lies . one reason might be my ignorance . but that's not all to
it . one thing i think about is we do not take into account the
politics of the time . i don't say this should be a political forumn ;
no , but if politics says who governs , who is governed by , then
everything differs . On the whole , we reached a conclusion that
Vygotsky has , at least , a half-glance at Marxism . The other seven
of his disciples , too . Activity Theory has its roots in Marxism . My
experience tells me when discussions approach a concrete stance , even
our weaker ones could make a sense of the discussion . Four of our
dears I can name as exemplars are : Mike , Andy , Martin , David .
Let's follow their suit .
>
> I should be forgiven if I claim I curse this word "any" . In two
articles , Andy Blunden and Peter Jones , long ago , discussed that by
"work" , they didn't mean "any" "work" . They and Marx meant
"valorization" Process ; the work which creates "value" . It's that
"value" --surplus--which is appropriated by capitalists . Our friends
say Freire talks about oppression in education but one cannot get the
idea how this oppression could be eliminated . Within capitalism or
outside of it ? and if outside of it , how and by what means ? Being
at it , one good researcher Julian Williams , using the content of
Lave and McDermott's article of 2002 , had her debate on comparing
Labour alianation and educational education . This good Lady referred
us to a response Peter Jones had had to her article . Everybody were
silent about this important matter .
>
> [[I would suggest that the term how we "participate" rather than
>
> "make" is central to exploring "vital experience".]]
>
> If I claim that I want to go further than "individual" or "persoanl"
, what could be my today's "vital experience" ? I'm wrong if I say ? :
the recession in the capitalist world , the hasty William Hague who
wants to put an end to every bitter taste in the impoverished ,
oppressed , backward Middle East so that His treasury might not get
exausted sooner and earlier than predicted and to this end even
people's lives are not important for Him , the Air Bombardments of the
Evil Nato , the natural and social mishaps quite afresh to the mouths
of our noble westerners ? Then where do you want to participate ? and
in what ? did you join the demonstrations in the American streets for
the quite genuine serious class differentiations / exploitation ? Here
people are killed when they demonstrate but that's not for you there .
>
> [[This is a vital experience that
>
> transforms the individual person's orientation within the world.]]
>
> I think and you know for certain that this is not the "any"
individual who is orientated within the world . It is , you say more
emphatically than I do , the COLLECTIVIZED individual person , all
along with His co-partners of the same rank and class , who are
orientated and then are destined to enter battling with the not yet
transformed ?? world of oppression , genocide , slaughter and cruelty
. An individual does not sleep one especial night and does not awake
the next day with social justice at her bosom . Transformations WITHIN
requires a calling on the WITHOUT . How is it that a new-born needs
socialization but adults could live on her own , agentively as you say
or at most with the dead experiences internalized and , true , if
vital , ones need be , where should we be orientated / stationed so
that "vitality" could be secured and gauranteed ?
>
> [[This is an
>
> agentive response that has the quality of being a "personal" decision.]]
>
> I seek your forgiveness if I say this yet smacks of a "gone with the
wind only not to return" world of capitalistic struggle against
feudalism , fraternity , equality and ... . This means "individual"
decision not "personal" decision in the sense of Vygotsky and
Leontyev's "SENSE" . I remember Leontyev somewhere saying : an
instinct of hunger just raises the animal to its feet , the rest
remains for her to orientate within the surrounding and environment .
you need a decent life ; then in the social milieu , the environment ,
the objective field , the object world , many things are located and
contiguous . You have to choose one / some to satisfy your need . That
thing or things becomes/become the "motive" of the activity you're
going to fulfill . You've , then , gone to a world of decision making
, agency as you remind us of . An exploiter seeks an instrument of
murder ; an exploited seeks a means of emancipation . For the explited
, the general
> social meaning of "any" and "every" equality in the AIR has been
vanished .
>
> might continue ...
>
> All the best
>
> Haydi
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>
> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
> Sent: Thursday, 6 October 2011, 16:25:49
> Subject: [xmca] adverbial qualified movement, action, being
>
>
> The discussion of vivencia has me pondering
>
>
> The turn to discussing "vital experience" or being as qualified
being [not
>
> qualia] seems to be an opening with potential and possibility.
>
>
> Andy,
>
> you ask if it is what we "make" of an experience that is
determinative if it
>
> is "vital". I would suggest that the term how we "participate"
rather than
>
> "make" is central to exploring "vital experience". Making is one
particular
>
> approach to engaging vital experience. This is a vital experience that
>
> transforms the individual person's orientation within the world.
This is an
>
> agentive response that has the quality of being a "personal"
decision. I
>
> would like to suggest this is one particular way to intergrate "vital
>
> experience in our proceeding along pathways. I would even suggest
this may
>
> be the particular way forward that is biased as an approach within
modernity
>
> as an ethical way of life.
>
> >From this perspective "vital experience" can be personally
"undergone" and
>
> through struggle and courageously exploring of personal inscapes the
person
>
> can change direction and "make" something different of their lives
>
> [develop]
>
>
> However, alternatively, the person could possibly be "met"
[alterity] and
>
> in this "I-YOU" meeting "vital experience" is transformed and new
pathways
>
> open. I wonder if this alternative way of engaging "vital
experience" is
>
> through "witnessing" [as I explored recently] This is another way of
>
> engaging "vital experience" that does not emphasize the personal
courageous
>
> aspect of transformation [as making] but rather points to "being
met" within
>
> the "vital experience".
>
>
> I've contrasted and made distinct two possible openings of development
>
> [transformation or in*formation] One emphasing a journey through
inscapes,
>
> the other through intersubjective "holding environments". In
actuality there
>
> may be multiple flow-forms and interweavings of these multiple
strands of
>
> "vital experience" What I'm pointing to is our socio-cultural biases in
>
> modernity to validate the "inscapes" as legitimate [good] pathways of
>
> transformation while invalidating the inter-subjective witnessing
pathways
>
> to transformation. [as dependency and defended against] In other
words we
>
> don't really "trust" the other will actually respond to the calling
of "vial
>
> experience".
>
> Andy, I grant that after being "met" [which I believe may be
developmental
>
> in its own movement] there follow other phases or levels of
transformation
>
> that bring us back to "spaces of reason" "propositional language games"
>
> "agentive stances of *making* ones way in the world", etc.
>
> This becomes a cultural-historical narrative of projects and objects and
>
> activity. I also grant "meeting" as I'm discussing it is
"normative" and an
>
> ethical stance towards alterity [including one's own alterity].
However as
>
> a particular form of participation it may have as much validity and
>
> legitimacy as the moe courageous form of turning towards inscapes for
>
> transormation.
>
>
> Larry
>
> __________________________________________
>
> _____
>
> xmca mailing list
>
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> __________________________________________
> _____
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
>
>
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
__________________________________________
_____
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca