Re: [xmca] adverbial qualified movement, action, being

[Haydi Zulfei <haydizulfei@rocketmail.com>]

________________________________
From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Sent: Friday, 7 October 2011, 6:41:32
Subject: Re: [xmca] adverbial qualified movement, action, being


Haydi, I'm not sure if I quite understand you, so forgive me please if 

my response misses the point. I think maybe you are frustrated at the 

emphasis on personal deevelopment in a time when mass action and 

transformation is urgently required for the survival of the world.

**No , not really ! I wanted to refer to the PHILOSOPHY OF INDIVIDUALISM , the greatly-blessed fruit of capitalistic formation , which has been institutionalized , praised , worshiped , in the West . I wanted to refer to the DEMARXIZATION OF MARX even while they resort to him . I wanted to refer to the idea that in a search of one of the biggest libraries of the West , there were 157 entries of Vygotsky but none of Leontyev or Luria . I wonder why you wish the blossoming of the springs in the Middle East but forget about the idea that this equals the strengthening of the State of Israel . Is Zionism , for you , the same as the "Open Society" of Karl Popper ? ...and why is it that some people who have not been able to find their own way to victory , instead of thinking and planning for themselves , should seek help from the most terrific armed to the teeth of alien powers and international gendarmes ? Were not these same powers who did their most to
 topple Vygotsky's Motherland ? ** 
 
Let 

me pose the question I was asking about (though really I was just 

seeking to better understand vivencia and perezhivanie) in terms of 

problems in Iran.

**If perezhivanie is not to give up and continue your finding a way to happiness (relief / catharthis) , ok , good lesson for all struggling people and I should add that i was just reading Leontyev . He refers to a hedonistic way of life and condemns it ; says your grief or happiness ultimately refers to the goal of the activity you've chosen for yourself . Remember the child of Vygotsky who cried bitterly because he had solved the problem apparently but deep in his conscience he felt disappointed because he had made a trick . And doesn't this motto teach us : Resort to your own powers ; don't seek help from the Evils ; you do understand , by Evils , I mean Multinationals and their military arsenals , Nato . **

 About one year ago there were huge demonstrations in 

Iran and many young people were killed or bashed by thugs supporting the 

regime. Sometimes experiences like this harden people's resolve and the 

resistance gets bigger, further repression only increases the people's 

anger. The 1979 Revolution was like that, until the air force refused to 

fire on the people any more.

**You've guessed and displaced my homeland unawaringly , Andy . But as far as I know and from what the mass media said at the time , it was Hoiser or Hauser who was on an evil mission to the Region not the People . Even if we suppose this is not an artificial spring but a genuine one , the Evil succeeded in averting the direction of the movement to the benefit of the State of Zionism . The point is it's people whether soldiers or common people and their dear homelands who are victimized because , at this juncture of the time , West needs Militarization and Oil more than ever before .  Think plz of the double standards with respect to the different countries in the region so that you will better understand the Evil is on a very CRUEL mission . **
 
We are hoping that this will happen in 

Syria, and the Arab Spring will blossom there too. But sometimes it 

doesn't. "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger." Sometimes it does 

kill you. What are the factors which were missing which allowed all the 

sacrifice by young people a year (or so) ago to fail to lead to the 

downfall of the regime? I don't know. But these questions can only be 

solved by CHAT or something like CHAT. Because it is about people's 

feelings and thoughts as well as about cultural and historical changes 

affected masses of people.


**My point was a chat which is against CHAT disarms you . I gave my reasons for this . And we are not to label CHAT any kind of chat . **

Marx said: "Both for the production on a mass scale of this communist 

consciousness, and ... the alteration of men on a mass scale is, 

necessary, ... a revolution;

**On facebook I saw CHAT from Volker before his active participation on xmca recently ; did not know him or had forgotten all about him . I put a question which is now readable there : I wonder which of the letters / words is the most important . He answered : Activity ! It's activity which produces the others of the WORD . Now revolution in what ? Revolution occurs when all other means , as you're also referring to , have proved futile . I also remember Lenin's . 
I was referring to what kind of dialogue and from what source . Again , "ANY" dialogue from "any" source ? **

 this revolution is necessary, therefore, 

not only because the ruling class cannot be overthrown in any other way, 

but also because the class overthrowing it can only in a revolution  **NOT OF TALK AS ACTION OR NEGOTIATION INSTEAD OF ACTION**

succeed in ridding itself of all the muck of ages and become fitted to 

found society anew."


**On  the whole , I was dragged to this kind of discussion but , in fact , the direction of my talk was something else . shortly , I wanted to say PHILOSOPHY AND SCIENCE (SOCIAL) are also biased !! And here I see it quite necessary to give my deep apologies to dear Larry . Mine was general not specific !! **


What do you think, Haydi?

Andy


Haydi Zulfei wrote:

> Andy,

>

> [[you ask if it is what we "make" of an experience that is determinative if it

>

> is "vital".  I would suggest that the term how we "participate" rather than

>

> "make" is central to exploring "vital experience".  Making is one particular

>

> approach to engaging vital experience.  This is a vital experience that

>

> transforms the individual person's orientation within the world.  This is an

>

> agentive response that has the quality of being a "personal" decision.  I

>

> would like to suggest this is one particular way to intergrate "vital

>

> experience in our proceeding along pathways. I would even suggest this may

>

> be the particular way forward that is biased as an approach within modernity

>

> as an ethical way of life.

>

> >From this perspective "vital experience" can be personally "undergone" and

>

> through struggle and courageously exploring of personal inscapes the person

>

> can change direction and "make" something different of their lives

>

> [develop] ]]

>

> Dear all 

>

> This is part of a message by dear Larry . I've been to this forum for long . i get confused reading the passage . i ask myself where the reason lies . one reason might be my ignorance . but that's not all to it . one thing i think about is we do not take into account the politics of the time . i don't say this should be a political forumn ; no , but if politics says who governs , who is governed by , then everything differs . On the whole , we reached a conclusion that Vygotsky has , at least , a half-glance at Marxism . The other seven of his disciples , too . Activity Theory has its roots in Marxism . My experience tells me when discussions approach a concrete stance , even our weaker ones could make a sense of the discussion . Four of our dears I can name as exemplars are : Mike , Andy , Martin , David . Let's follow their suit . 

>

> I should be forgiven if I claim I curse this word "any" . In two articles , Andy Blunden and Peter Jones , long ago , discussed that by "work" , they didn't mean "any" "work" . They and Marx meant "valorization" Process ; the work which creates "value" . It's that "value" --surplus--which is appropriated by capitalists . Our friends say Freire talks about oppression in education but one cannot get the idea how this oppression could be eliminated . Within capitalism or outside of it ? and if outside of it , how and by what means ? Being at it , one good researcher Julian Williams , using the content of Lave and McDermott's article of 2002 , had her debate on comparing Labour alianation and educational education . This good Lady referred us to a response Peter Jones had had to her article . Everybody were silent about this important matter .

>

> [[I would suggest that the term how we "participate" rather than

>

> "make" is central to exploring "vital experience".]]

>

> If I claim that I want to go further than "individual" or "persoanl" , what could be my today's "vital experience" ? I'm wrong if I say ? : the recession in the capitalist world , the hasty William Hague who wants to put an end to every bitter taste in the impoverished , oppressed , backward Middle East so that His treasury might not get exausted sooner and earlier than predicted and to this end even people's lives are not important for Him , the Air Bombardments of the Evil Nato , the natural and social mishaps quite afresh to the mouths of our noble westerners ? Then where do you want to participate ? and in what ? did you join the demonstrations in the American streets for the quite genuine serious class differentiations / exploitation ? Here people are killed when they demonstrate but that's not for you there .  

>

> [[This is a vital experience that

>

> transforms the individual person's orientation within the world.]]

>

> I think and you know for certain that this is not the "any" individual who is orientated within the world . It is , you say more emphatically than I do , the COLLECTIVIZED individual person , all along with His co-partners of the same rank and class , who are orientated and then are destined to enter battling with the not yet transformed ?? world of oppression , genocide , slaughter and cruelty .  An individual does not sleep one especial night and does not awake the next day with social justice at her bosom . Transformations WITHIN requires a calling on the WITHOUT . How is it that a new-born needs socialization but adults could live on her own , agentively as you say or at most with the dead experiences internalized and , true , if vital , ones need be , where should we be orientated / stationed so that "vitality" could be secured and gauranteed ? 

>

>  [[This is an

>

> agentive response that has the quality of being a "personal" decision.]]

>

> I seek your forgiveness if I say this yet smacks of a "gone with the wind only not to return" world of capitalistic struggle against  feudalism , fraternity , equality and ... . This means "individual" decision not "personal" decision in the sense of Vygotsky and Leontyev's "SENSE" . I remember Leontyev somewhere saying : an instinct of hunger just raises the animal to its feet , the rest remains for her to orientate within the surrounding and environment . you need a decent life ; then in the social milieu , the environment , the objective field , the object world , many things are located and contiguous . You have to choose one / some to satisfy your need . That thing or things becomes/become the "motive" of the activity you're going to fulfill . You've , then , gone to a world of decision making , agency as you remind us of . An exploiter seeks an instrument of murder ; an exploited seeks a means of emancipation . For the explited , the general

>  social meaning of "any" and "every" equality in the AIR has been vanished . 

>

> might continue ...

>

> All the best 

>

> Haydi

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> ________________________________

> From: Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>

> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>

> Sent: Thursday, 6 October 2011, 16:25:49

> Subject: [xmca] adverbial qualified movement, action, being

>

>

> The discussion of vivencia has me pondering

>

>

> The turn to discussing "vital experience" or being as qualified being [not

>

> qualia] seems to be an opening with potential and possibility.

>

>

> Andy,

>

> you ask if it is what we "make" of an experience that is determinative if it

>

> is "vital".  I would suggest that the term how we "participate" rather than

>

> "make" is central to exploring "vital experience".  Making is one particular

>

> approach to engaging vital experience.  This is a vital experience that

>

> transforms the individual person's orientation within the world.  This is an

>

> agentive response that has the quality of being a "personal" decision.  I

>

> would like to suggest this is one particular way to intergrate "vital

>

> experience in our proceeding along pathways. I would even suggest this may

>

> be the particular way forward that is biased as an approach within modernity

>

> as an ethical way of life.

>

> >From this perspective "vital experience" can be personally "undergone" and

>

> through struggle and courageously exploring of personal inscapes the person

>

> can change direction and "make" something different of their lives

>

> [develop]

>

>

> However, alternatively, the person could possibly be "met" [alterity] and

>

> in this "I-YOU" meeting "vital experience" is transformed and new pathways

>

> open.  I wonder if this alternative way of engaging "vital experience" is

>

> through "witnessing" [as I explored recently] This is another way of

>

> engaging "vital experience" that does not emphasize the personal courageous

>

> aspect of transformation [as making] but rather points to "being met" within

>

> the "vital experience".

>

>

> I've contrasted and made distinct two possible openings of development

>

> [transformation or in*formation]  One emphasing a journey through inscapes,

>

> the other through intersubjective "holding environments". In actuality there

>

> may be multiple flow-forms and interweavings of these multiple strands of

>

> "vital experience"  What I'm pointing to is our socio-cultural biases in

>

> modernity  to validate the "inscapes" as legitimate [good] pathways of

>

> transformation while invalidating the inter-subjective witnessing pathways

>

> to transformation.  [as dependency and defended against] In other words we

>

> don't really "trust" the other will actually respond to the calling of "vial

>

> experience".

>

> Andy, I grant that after being "met" [which I believe may be developmental

>

> in its own movement] there follow other phases or levels of transformation

>

> that bring us back to "spaces of reason" "propositional language games"

>

> "agentive stances of *making* ones way in the world", etc.

>

> This becomes a cultural-historical narrative of projects and objects and

>

> activity.  I also grant "meeting" as I'm discussing it is "normative" and an

>

> ethical stance towards alterity [including one's own alterity].  However as

>

> a particular form of participation it may have as much validity and

>

> legitimacy as the moe courageous form of turning towards inscapes for

>

> transormation.

>

>

> Larry

>

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>  


-- 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Andy Blunden*

Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1

Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/

Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857



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