Andy & Larry-- there is a paper by McDermott and Dore from a while back
on conversation as "collusion." Hmmm. Sounds less friendly than
collaboration, but, then, collaboration has its shady meanings too.
Achilles. I first encountered the term, heterochrony, in the work of the
evolutionary biologist, Steven J. Gould. When we combine heterochrony
and synchronic heterogeneity, i believe that non-linear dynamic systems
are perhaps a ubiquitous outcome of the emergent process.
mike
On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 5:03 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
Larry, the concept which I think transcends conversation or dialogue
is *collaboration*. This is a term that has been coming up in the
Zeitgeist for some time now, from many different directions. Its
importance is this: it is one thing to have a conversation with
someone over there on the other side of the fence, but until you
work together on a shared project, you are just sharing words, you
do not really share a concept. It's like the difference between an
acquaintance and a friend. Conversations are informative, but they
can be based on nothing. You need a joint project to collaborate on.
There is always tradition, by this or some other name (Gadamar for
"tradition"), the point is that traditions are made up not just of
words but of activities (the context of the word). So to innovate in
a tradition, you need to create new activities, i.e., collaborative
projects.
That's how I see it. What do you think, Larry?
Andy
Larry Purss wrote:
Hi Achilles
Your questions are fascinating as an inquiry of the constructs
or heuristic processes of emerging "traditions" "schools of
thought" "paradigms" "Discourses" as cultural patterns which we
articulate and INHABIT.
When you mention Freud, the extensive literature that has
developed exploring the formation of a "tradition" of
psychoanalysis as a sociological and cultural "way of knowing"
is informative of epistemological ways of creating knowledge.
How different versions of the "truth"are contested and "true
believers" who are arguing for a specific version (as "dogma")
make validity claims of CERTAINTY for their "true" version (as
they believe Freud saw the world) is a process of narrative
construction worth studying in its own right. In fact the
sociology of knowledge is a "tradition which does just that. In
exploring Vygotsky's contribution to a new emerging
"perspective" or vantage point from which to "see" human
"nature" the same processes are at PLAY. The metaphor that
best captures the DYNAMIC PROCESS at play in the creation or
construction of "traditions" seems to be the metaphor of
CONVERSATION (as the process of sharing particular perspectives
not to confirm your particular perspective but as a conscious
process that a THIRD perspective that is NOVEL and emerges
within the open space of the conversation is constructed and
each participants version (which is held tentatively as a
FALLIBLE perspective) is enlarged as each conversant's "horizon
of understanding" is expanded. The part that I'm curious about
(in my ZPD) is how to create social structures where this
fallible position can be nurtured and the vitality of
conversation as creating THIRDNESS replaces the need for
"traditions" as locations of dogma as "truth".
It is this SENSIBILITY towards "knowing" within the CHAT
collective (in contrast to SENSE) that I appreciate so much as a
place which invites an open space to generate THIRDNESS. ( I
apologize if I'm using this term in a way that muddles other
conceptions of thirdness such as Peirce) "Thirdness" as a spirit
of inquiry does capture the spirit of NOVELTY created in
communities of inquiry.
It also helps to explain when thirdness collapses into CERTAINTY
and scholars such as Freud or Vygotsky get locked into dogmatic
traditions. The question to be answered is how do we keep
"traditions" open to novelty in a spirit of thirdness.
Larry
----- Original Message -----
From: Bella Kotik-Friedgut <bella.kotik@gmail.com
<mailto:bella.kotik@gmail.com>>
Date: Saturday, January 16, 2010 3:03 am
Subject: Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something in English?
To: lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>, "eXtended
Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
As a student I took part in Leontjev's course on geleral
psychology and the
his distancing was not obvious (at least for us as students
because one of
the compulsory tasks was to read " Thinking and Speech" and
to be examined
fully on one book as well as another task to read Leontjev;s
"Problems of
development of mind") As for the tradition: Luria's "Basics of
Neuropsychology" is based on Vygotsky's ideas quite
explicitly. Is this an
expression of cultural-historical tradition?
Bella Kotik
.
On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 5:57 AM, mike cole
<lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>> wrote:
Achilles. I think we have lived to witness exactly
"non-liner
genetic> course
or history." For many complex reasons Vygotsky "missed"
the dominant trend
of his times, behaviorism/psychoanalysis" in a way that
anticipated the
turn
away from Piaget (who did not become "mainstream" in USA
until late
1950's-60's) and banishment of Freud from mainstream
psychology to cultural
studies circles and, in watered down fashion, human
potential
movements) so
that when
Toulmin wrote about "The mozart of psychology" his clearly
idiocyncratic> interpretation fell like a match into a pool
of gasoline (that looked for
all the world like a pool of water). The "Vygotsky
explosion" that many, such as Laszlo Garai in Hungary have
written about,
and that so irritate many, was the result.
Its really a fascinating process to have lived through,
contributed to,
been guilty of, etc.
And look at one of its consequences. We chatter across the
globe as easily,
or more easily, than we get a loaf of bread...... while
others
starve.>
Non linear for sure.
mike
On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 6:37 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
achilles_delari@hotmail.com
<mailto:achilles_delari@hotmail.com>> wrote:
I am not historicist, but I can remember something from
Benjamin about
"tradition" x "conservationism" ... That tradition
is not always
conservative nor authoritarian, there are
democratic, dialogical,
revolutionary traditions too... I guess - in
addition - that
perhaps> > something like a "cultural tradition" (any
cultural tradition, in diverse
fields of society collective actions) can have a
non-liner
genetic course
or
history... I dont know if this is terminologically
possible
or adequate.
But
a psychological theory, and/or approach, and/or
"perspective" (has some
people tell here in Brazil: "historical-cultural
perspective") - can not
be
like a dogmatic religious tradition (despite I have any
doubts if even
religions can be strictly dogmatic all the time
without any
secular> > influences and changes to dialog with broader
cultural contexts, etc.).
In
this sense neither behaviorism or psychoanalysis
could be
understood as
an
strict "tradition" (there was fights and ruptures
all the time,
dissidences,
detours, new trends, and interpretations, etc.).
Scientific
thought> > presupposes changes as a sine qua non condition
of its own existence...
Of
course, in the field of the Vygotsky's intelectual,
cultural, legacy
("puzzle kind" legacy) the discontinuous,
intermittent, sometimes
enigmatic,
character of the history of this "(non)tradition" it
is very
eminent.> There
are several important intellectual disputes about
the "correct
interpretation", the best exegetic tools, etc. But
how can
we name this
historical process? Is there something in this that
can have
the same
name?
Every new name means an actual paradigmatic rupture?
A name
never can be
only one meaning, of course. The sample of the name
of the
Journal is
really
worthwhile - a kind of "family name" (as "complex" in
thought and
language
relations). People sometimes use names, words, has
sign of some
collective
identity, to be included in a broader common troupe of
social actors...
this
is far to be something harmonious or ideally
synergistic,
but exist some
need to stay in touch with persons that have some
common
interests,> mainly
common values, as Mike said. If this can be named a
tradition, now I
already
don't if is the more important question.
Achilles.
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 17:26:30 -0800
Subject: Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something
in English?
From: lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>
To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Perhaps we can get the shif book translated if
it is
interesting. Does
it
exist in Russian, Anton?
I disagree with only one part of what you say about
"cultural-historical"
school never existing. In the period from about
1956
following Stalin's
death, to the death of Luria and Leontiev, there
was an
identifiable> > group
of people who met together, talked together, shared
certain ideas and
values. They were also quite influential as
heads of some
departments> and
institutes. They did not all agree with each other
(Achille's evocation
of
family strikes me as about right) and Leontiev
was both
feared and
distanced
from the others, but they maintained a kind of
uneasy
alliance. Here I
would
include
Luria, Zaporzhets, Elkonin, Slavina, Morozova,
and perhaps
a few
others.
It is a great irony that NOW there is a journal of
cultural-historical
psychology in Russia. But perhaps, not a bad thing.
mike (socio-cultural-historical activity
scholar) :-))
On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Achilles
Delari Junior <
achilles_delari@hotmail.com
<mailto:achilles_delari@hotmail.com>> wrote:
I really understand... Maybe we can say that
Vygotsky
himself was
notever
following his own "project"... In some
documents
(letters) he
expresshis
desire to dedicate to an species of "cause",
the
"reconstruction of
allpsychological science, building an
unified approach,
but I really
feel
that therewas no "tradition" stricto sensu,
nor no "vigotskian
school"
in a
very definitefashion... Even more to read
Vygotsky is
hard exegetical
task,
his all workseems to be a kind of complex
million pieces
puzzle, at
least
for us non Russianreaders... I dont know...
But when
everybody lies,
we
need
to think aboutmethodological tools to define
if there is
a possible
differentiation betweenlies and truth, or we
can be
satisfied with
the
impossibility of any truth inany social
discourse... In
capitalists> > liberal
regimes, people can tell some liesin order
to satisfy
editorial needs
and
market demands too... financial
researchfounds to their(our)
projects,
and
so on. Then, nobody is without guilt...
inthis great
social game for
personal success in unequal power
relationships, between
nations,> > between
institutions, between groups, persons, or
evenbetween
brothers at the
same
home...
:-(
Best wishes.
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 11:35:51 -0800
From: the_yasya@yahoo.com
<mailto:the_yasya@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif –
something in English?
To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Same thing. No answer. Special research
needed.
Everybody lies.
From
1930s -- onwards.
Also, note: "Cultural-historical
tradition" sensu
Vygotsky never
existed.
And hardly exists today.
----- Original Message ----
From: Achilles Delari Junior
<achilles_delari@hotmail.com
<mailto:achilles_delari@hotmail.com>>> > > > > To:
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Sent: Fri, January 15, 2010 12:59:24 PM
Subject: RE: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif –
something in English?
Anton,
This sounds much better! :-)Thank you
very much. And
about this
title?Психология глухих. (Под ред. И.М.
Соловьева, Ж.И.
Шиф, Т.В.
Розановой
и Н.В. Яшковой), М., 1971.Not already from
the 1930s...
What you
recommends?
I found an recent Russian publication from
2006,{
http://bookseller.ru/book.php?n=1454} but I
did not feel
secure to
order
in my blind condition tounderstand the book
importance
or relation to
historical-cultural tradition...
Thank you.
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 09:48:14 -0800
From: the_yasya@yahoo.com
<mailto:the_yasya@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif
– something in
English?> > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
RE: Its important to know that it is
not near to
Vygotsky's> trends.
--
I never said so. I guess I meant to
state that the
connection is
not
obvious and requires substantial textual
analysis.
Especially so,
given
the
deliberately cryptic style of writing in Soviet
Psychology from the
1930s
onwards...
----- Original Message ----
From: Achilles Delari Junior
<achilles_delari@hotmail.com
<mailto:achilles_delari@hotmail.com>>> > > > > > To:
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Sent: Fri, January 15, 2010 12:12:00 PM
Subject: RE: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif
– something in
English?> > > > > >
I understand.Thank you very much.I
saw that there is
something> from
her
about deaf psychology, for instance, etc.Its
important
to know that
it
is
not near to Vygotsky's trends.
Best.
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 08:10:21
-0800
From: the_yasya@yahoo.com
<mailto:the_yasya@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [xmca] Zhozephina
Shif – something in
English?> > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
I personally strongly doubt any
translation of
this book ever
existed.
Good luck anyway!
-- However, there is other stuff
by Shif available
in English,
but it
is hardly related to her Leningrad work and
represent
her later
Moscow
work
in defectology...
----- Original Message ----
From: Achilles Delari Junior
<achilles_delari@hotmail.com
<mailto:achilles_delari@hotmail.com>>> > > > > > > To:
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Sent: Fri, January 15, 2010
2:37:26 AM
Subject: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif
– something in English?
Hi XMCA
people…
In order to
help another friend of mine,
biologist, studying
scientific> > concepts
development, I’m wonder if you
have any notice
about English
(Spanish, French,
etc.) publication from the
following text:
Shif, J. I. “Razvitie nauchnykh
ponyatii u schko’nika:
Issledovanie k voprosu
umstvenogo razvitiya
shkol’nika pri
obuchenii
obshchestvovedeniyu” [The
development of
scientific concepts in
the
school
child: The investigation of
intellectual
development of the
school
child in
social science instruction].
Moscow – Leningrad:
Gosudarstvennoe
Uchebno-Pedagicheskoe
Izdatel’stvo. 1935.
I’m trying
the Russian high now, but we are
not so prepared
to actually
translate Russian so
soon, without a huge time
spending… And there are
many other
Russian
needs
prior at the schedule, most of
that already
provide thanks you
all.
If you have any notice... :-)
Thank you
very much. Good 2010 for all.
Best
wishes.
Achilles.
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--
Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
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