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Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something in English?



If "collaboration" accrued some bad connotations in a period when the Zeitgiest was all-out war and damnation of the other, then this is something the word can bear. Dialogue has to have a context.

Andy
mike cole wrote:
Andy & Larry-- there is a paper by McDermott and Dore from a while back on conversation as "collusion." Hmmm. Sounds less friendly than collaboration, but, then, collaboration has its shady meanings too.

Achilles. I first encountered the term, heterochrony, in the work of the evolutionary biologist, Steven J. Gould. When we combine heterochrony and synchronic heterogeneity, i believe that non-linear dynamic systems are perhaps a ubiquitous outcome of the emergent process.

mike
On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 5:03 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:

    Larry, the concept which I think transcends conversation or dialogue
    is *collaboration*. This is a term that has been coming up in the
    Zeitgeist for some time now, from many different directions. Its
    importance is this: it is one thing to have a conversation with
    someone over there on the other side of the fence, but until you
    work together on a shared project, you are just sharing words, you
    do not really share a concept. It's like the difference between an
    acquaintance and a friend. Conversations are informative, but they
    can be based on nothing. You need a joint project to collaborate on.

    There is always tradition, by this or some other name (Gadamar for
    "tradition"), the point is that traditions are made up not just of
    words but of activities (the context of the word). So to innovate in
    a tradition, you need to create new activities, i.e., collaborative
    projects.

    That's how I see it. What do you think, Larry?

    Andy


    Larry Purss wrote:

        Hi Achilles
         Your questions are fascinating as an inquiry of the constructs
        or heuristic processes of emerging "traditions" "schools of
        thought" "paradigms" "Discourses" as cultural patterns which we
        articulate and INHABIT.
        When you mention Freud, the extensive literature that has
        developed exploring the formation of a "tradition" of
        psychoanalysis as a sociological and cultural "way of knowing"
        is informative of epistemological ways of creating knowledge.
        How different versions of the "truth"are contested and "true
        believers" who are arguing for a specific version (as "dogma")
         make validity claims  of CERTAINTY for their "true" version (as
        they believe Freud saw the world) is a process of narrative
        construction worth studying in its own right. In fact the
        sociology of knowledge is a "tradition which does just that. In
        exploring Vygotsky's contribution to a new emerging
        "perspective" or vantage point from which to "see" human
        "nature" the same processes are at PLAY.   The metaphor that
        best captures the DYNAMIC PROCESS at play in the creation or
        construction of "traditions" seems to be the metaphor of
        CONVERSATION (as the process of sharing particular perspectives
        not to confirm your particular perspective but as a conscious
        process that a THIRD perspective that is NOVEL and emerges
        within the open space of the conversation is constructed and
        each participants version (which is held tentatively as a
        FALLIBLE perspective) is enlarged as each conversant's "horizon
        of understanding" is expanded.  The part that I'm curious about
        (in my ZPD) is how to create social structures where this
        fallible position can be nurtured and the vitality of
        conversation as creating THIRDNESS replaces the need for
        "traditions" as locations of dogma as "truth".
        It is this SENSIBILITY towards "knowing" within the CHAT
        collective (in contrast to SENSE) that I appreciate so much as a
        place which invites an open space to generate THIRDNESS. ( I
        apologize if I'm using this term in a way that muddles other
        conceptions of thirdness such as Peirce) "Thirdness" as a spirit
        of inquiry does capture the spirit of NOVELTY created in
        communities of inquiry.
        It also helps to explain when thirdness collapses into CERTAINTY
        and scholars such as Freud or Vygotsky get locked into dogmatic
        traditions.  The question to be answered is how do we keep
        "traditions" open to novelty in a spirit of thirdness.
        Larry


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Bella Kotik-Friedgut <bella.kotik@gmail.com
        <mailto:bella.kotik@gmail.com>>
        Date: Saturday, January 16, 2010 3:03 am
        Subject: Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something in English?
        To: lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>, "eXtended
        Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
        <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>

            As a student I took part in Leontjev's course on geleral
            psychology and the
            his distancing was not obvious (at least for us as students
            because one of
            the compulsory tasks was to read "  Thinking and Speech" and
            to be examined
            fully on one book as well as another task to read Leontjev;s
            "Problems of
            development of mind") As for the tradition: Luria's "Basics of
            Neuropsychology" is based on Vygotsky's ideas  quite
            explicitly. Is this an
            expression of cultural-historical tradition?

            Bella Kotik
            .
            On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 5:57 AM, mike cole
            <lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>> wrote:

                Achilles. I think we have lived to witness exactly
                "non-liner

            genetic> course

                or history."  For many complex reasons Vygotsky "missed"

            the dominant trend

                of his times, behaviorism/psychoanalysis" in a way that

            anticipated the

                turn
                away from Piaget (who did not become "mainstream" in USA
                until late
                1950's-60's) and banishment of Freud from mainstream

            psychology to cultural

                studies circles and, in watered down fashion, human
                potential

            movements) so

                that when
                Toulmin wrote about "The mozart of psychology" his clearly

            idiocyncratic> interpretation fell like a match into a pool
            of gasoline (that looked for

                all the world like a pool of water). The "Vygotsky
                explosion" that many, such as Laszlo Garai in Hungary have

            written about,

                and that so irritate many, was the result.

                Its really a fascinating process to have lived through,

            contributed to,

                been guilty of, etc.

                And look at one of its consequences. We chatter across the

            globe as easily,

                or more easily, than we get a loaf of bread...... while
                others

            starve.>

                Non linear for sure.
                mike

                On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 6:37 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
                 achilles_delari@hotmail.com
                <mailto:achilles_delari@hotmail.com>> wrote:

                    I am not historicist, but I can remember something from

            Benjamin about

                    "tradition" x "conservationism" ... That tradition
                    is not always
                    conservative nor authoritarian, there are
                    democratic, dialogical,
                    revolutionary traditions too... I guess - in
                    addition - that

            perhaps> > something like a "cultural tradition" (any
            cultural tradition, in diverse

                    fields of society collective actions) can have a
                    non-liner

            genetic course

                or

                    history... I dont know if this is terminologically
                    possible

            or adequate.

                But

                    a psychological theory, and/or approach, and/or

            "perspective" (has some

                    people tell here in Brazil: "historical-cultural

            perspective") - can not

                be

                    like a dogmatic religious tradition (despite I have any

            doubts if even

                    religions can be strictly dogmatic all the time
                    without any

            secular> > influences and changes to dialog with broader
            cultural contexts, etc.).

                In

                    this sense neither behaviorism or psychoanalysis
                    could be

            understood as

                an

                    strict "tradition" (there was fights and ruptures
                    all the time,

                dissidences,

                    detours, new trends, and interpretations, etc.).
                    Scientific

            thought> > presupposes changes as a sine qua non condition
            of its own existence...

                Of

                    course, in the field of the Vygotsky's intelectual,

            cultural, legacy

                    ("puzzle kind" legacy) the discontinuous,
                    intermittent, sometimes

                enigmatic,

                    character of the history of this "(non)tradition" it
                    is very

            eminent.> There

                    are several important intellectual disputes about
                    the "correct
                    interpretation", the best exegetic tools, etc. But
                    how can

            we name this

                    historical process? Is there something in this that
                    can have

            the same

                name?

                    Every new name means an actual paradigmatic rupture?
                    A name

            never can be

                    only one meaning, of course. The sample of the name
                    of the

            Journal is

                really

                    worthwhile - a kind of "family name" (as "complex" in

            thought and

                language

                    relations). People sometimes use names, words, has
                    sign of some

                collective

                    identity, to be included in a broader common troupe of

            social actors...

                this

                    is far to be something harmonious or ideally
                    synergistic,

            but exist some

                    need to stay in touch with persons that have some
                    common

            interests,> mainly

                    common values, as Mike said. If this can be named a

            tradition, now I

                already

                    don't if is the more important question.
                    Achilles.

                        Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 17:26:30 -0800
                        Subject: Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something
                        in English?
                        From: lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>
                        To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>

                        Perhaps we can get the shif book translated if
                        it is

            interesting. Does

                it

                        exist in Russian, Anton?

                        I disagree with only one part of what you say about

                "cultural-historical"

                        school never existing. In the period from about
                        1956

            following Stalin's

                        death, to the death of Luria and Leontiev, there
                        was an

            identifiable> > group

                        of people who met together, talked together, shared

            certain ideas and

                        values. They were also quite influential as
                        heads of some

            departments> and

                        institutes. They did not all agree with each other

            (Achille's evocation

                    of

                        family strikes me as about right) and Leontiev
                        was both

            feared and

                    distanced

                        from the others, but they maintained a kind of
                        uneasy

            alliance. Here I

                    would

                        include
                        Luria, Zaporzhets, Elkonin, Slavina, Morozova,
                        and perhaps

            a few

                others.

                        It is a great irony that NOW there is a journal of

            cultural-historical

                        psychology in Russia. But perhaps, not a bad thing.
                        mike (socio-cultural-historical activity
                        scholar) :-))


                        On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Achilles
                        Delari Junior <
                        achilles_delari@hotmail.com
                        <mailto:achilles_delari@hotmail.com>> wrote:

                            I really understand... Maybe we can say that
                            Vygotsky

            himself was

                    notever

                            following his own "project"... In some
                            documents

            (letters) he

                    expresshis

                            desire to dedicate to an species of "cause",
                            the

            "reconstruction of

                            allpsychological science, building an
                            unified approach,

            but I really

                    feel

                            that therewas no "tradition" stricto sensu,
                            nor no "vigotskian

                school"

                    in a

                            very definitefashion... Even more to read
                            Vygotsky is

            hard exegetical

                    task,

                            his all workseems to be a kind of complex
                            million pieces

            puzzle, at

                    least

                            for us non Russianreaders... I dont know...
                            But when

            everybody lies,

                we

                    need

                            to think aboutmethodological tools to define
                            if there is

            a possible

                            differentiation betweenlies and truth, or we
                            can be

            satisfied with

                the

                            impossibility of any truth inany social
                            discourse... In

            capitalists> > liberal

                            regimes, people can tell some liesin order
                            to satisfy

            editorial needs

                    and

                            market demands too... financial
                            researchfounds to their(our)

                projects,

                    and

                            so on. Then, nobody is without guilt...
                            inthis great

            social game for

                            personal success in unequal power
                            relationships, between

            nations,> > between

                            institutions, between groups, persons, or
                            evenbetween

            brothers at the

                    same

                            home...
                            :-(
                            Best wishes.

                                Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 11:35:51 -0800
                                From: the_yasya@yahoo.com
                                <mailto:the_yasya@yahoo.com>
                                Subject: Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif –
                                something in English?
                                To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
                                <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>

                                Same thing. No answer. Special research
                                needed.

            Everybody lies.

                From

                            1930s -- onwards.

                                Also, note: "Cultural-historical
                                tradition" sensu

            Vygotsky never

                    existed.

                            And hardly exists today.





                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: Achilles Delari Junior

            <achilles_delari@hotmail.com
            <mailto:achilles_delari@hotmail.com>>> > > > > To:
            xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>

                                Sent: Fri, January 15, 2010 12:59:24 PM
                                Subject: RE: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif –
                                something in English?


                                Anton,
                                This sounds much better! :-)Thank you
                                very much. And

            about this

                            title?Психология глухих. (Под ред. И.М.
                            Соловьева, Ж.И.

            Шиф, Т.В.

                    Розановой

                            и Н.В. Яшковой), М., 1971.Not already from
                            the 1930s...

            What you

                    recommends?

                            I found an recent Russian publication from
                            2006,{
                            http://bookseller.ru/book.php?n=1454} but I
                            did not feel

            secure to

                    order

                            in my blind condition tounderstand the book
                            importance

            or relation to

                            historical-cultural tradition...

                                Thank you.

                                    Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 09:48:14 -0800
                                    From: the_yasya@yahoo.com
                                    <mailto:the_yasya@yahoo.com>
                                    Subject: Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif
                                    – something in

            English?> > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
            <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>

                                    RE: Its important to know that it is
                                    not near to

            Vygotsky's> trends.

                    --

                                    I never said so. I guess I meant to
                                    state that the

            connection is

                    not

                            obvious and requires substantial textual
                            analysis.

            Especially so,

                given

                    the

                            deliberately cryptic style of writing in Soviet

            Psychology from the

                    1930s

                            onwards...





                                    ----- Original Message ----
                                    From: Achilles Delari Junior

            <achilles_delari@hotmail.com
            <mailto:achilles_delari@hotmail.com>>> > > > > > To:
            xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>

                                    Sent: Fri, January 15, 2010 12:12:00 PM
                                    Subject: RE: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif
                                    – something in

            English?> > > > > >

                                    I understand.Thank you very much.I
                                    saw that there is

            something> from

                    her

                            about deaf psychology, for instance, etc.Its
                            important

            to know that

                it

                    is

                            not near to Vygotsky's trends.

                                    Best.

                                        Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 08:10:21
                                        -0800
                                        From: the_yasya@yahoo.com
                                        <mailto:the_yasya@yahoo.com>
                                        Subject: Re: [xmca] Zhozephina
                                        Shif – something in

            English?> > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
            <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>

                                        I personally strongly doubt any
                                        translation of

            this book ever

                            existed.

                                        Good luck anyway!

                                        -- However, there is other stuff
                                        by Shif available

            in English,

                    but it

                            is hardly related to her Leningrad work and
                            represent

            her later

                Moscow

                    work

                            in defectology...




                                        ----- Original Message ----
                                        From: Achilles Delari Junior

            <achilles_delari@hotmail.com
            <mailto:achilles_delari@hotmail.com>>> > > > > > > To:
            xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>

                                        Sent: Fri, January 15, 2010
                                        2:37:26 AM
                                        Subject: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif
                                        – something in English?


                                        Hi XMCA
                                        people…



                                        In order to
                                        help another friend of mine,
                                        biologist, studying

            scientific> > concepts

                                        development, I’m wonder if you
                                        have any notice

            about English

                            (Spanish, French,

                                        etc.) publication from the
                                        following text:



                                        Shif, J. I. “Razvitie nauchnykh
                                        ponyatii u schko’nika:
                                        Issledovanie k voprosu
                                        umstvenogo razvitiya

            shkol’nika pri

                    obuchenii

                                        obshchestvovedeniyu” [The
                                        development of

            scientific concepts in

                    the

                            school

                                        child: The investigation of
                                        intellectual

            development of the

                    school

                            child in

                                        social science instruction].
                                        Moscow – Leningrad:

                Gosudarstvennoe

                                        Uchebno-Pedagicheskoe
                                        Izdatel’stvo. 1935.



                                        I’m trying
                                        the Russian high now, but we are
                                        not so prepared

            to actually

                            translate Russian so

                                        soon, without a huge time
                                        spending… And there are

            many other

                    Russian

                            needs

                                        prior at the schedule, most of
                                        that already

            provide thanks you

                    all.


                                        If you have any notice... :-)


                                        Thank you
                                        very much. Good 2010 for all.



                                        Best
                                        wishes.



                                        Achilles.



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-- Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
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