As a student I took part in Leontjev's course on geleral
psychology and the
his distancing was not obvious (at least for us as students
because one of
the compulsory tasks was to read " Thinking and Speech"
and to be examined
fully on one book as well as another task to read Leontjev;s
"Problems of
development of mind") As for the tradition: Luria's "Basics of
Neuropsychology" is based on Vygotsky's ideas quite
explicitly. Is this an
expression of cultural-historical tradition?
Bella Kotik
.
On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 5:57 AM, mike cole
<lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
Achilles. I think we have lived to witness exactly "non-liner
genetic> course
or history." For many complex reasons Vygotsky "missed"
the dominant trend
of his times, behaviorism/psychoanalysis" in a way that
anticipated the
turn
away from Piaget (who did not become "mainstream" in USA until late
1950's-60's) and banishment of Freud from mainstream
psychology to cultural
studies circles and, in watered down fashion, human potential
movements) so
that when
Toulmin wrote about "The mozart of psychology" his clearly
idiocyncratic> interpretation fell like a match into a pool of
gasoline (that looked for
all the world like a pool of water). The "Vygotsky
explosion" that many, such as Laszlo Garai in Hungary have
written about,
and that so irritate many, was the result.
Its really a fascinating process to have lived through,
contributed to,
been guilty of, etc.
And look at one of its consequences. We chatter across the
globe as easily,
or more easily, than we get a loaf of bread...... while others
starve.>
Non linear for sure.
mike
On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 6:37 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
I am not historicist, but I can remember something from
Benjamin about
"tradition" x "conservationism" ... That tradition is not always
conservative nor authoritarian, there are democratic, dialogical,
revolutionary traditions too... I guess - in addition - that
perhaps> > something like a "cultural tradition" (any cultural
tradition, in diverse
fields of society collective actions) can have a non-liner
genetic course
or
history... I dont know if this is terminologically possible
or adequate.
But
a psychological theory, and/or approach, and/or
"perspective" (has some
people tell here in Brazil: "historical-cultural
perspective") - can not
be
like a dogmatic religious tradition (despite I have any
doubts if even
religions can be strictly dogmatic all the time without any
secular> > influences and changes to dialog with broader
cultural contexts, etc.).
In
this sense neither behaviorism or psychoanalysis could be
understood as
an
strict "tradition" (there was fights and ruptures all the time,
dissidences,
detours, new trends, and interpretations, etc.). Scientific
thought> > presupposes changes as a sine qua non condition of
its own existence...
Of
course, in the field of the Vygotsky's intelectual,
cultural, legacy
("puzzle kind" legacy) the discontinuous, intermittent, sometimes
enigmatic,
character of the history of this "(non)tradition" it is very
eminent.> There
are several important intellectual disputes about the "correct
interpretation", the best exegetic tools, etc. But how can
we name this
historical process? Is there something in this that can have
the same
name?
Every new name means an actual paradigmatic rupture? A name
never can be
only one meaning, of course. The sample of the name of the
Journal is
really
worthwhile - a kind of "family name" (as "complex" in
thought and
language
relations). People sometimes use names, words, has sign of some
collective
identity, to be included in a broader common troupe of
social actors...
this
is far to be something harmonious or ideally synergistic,
but exist some
need to stay in touch with persons that have some common
interests,> mainly
common values, as Mike said. If this can be named a
tradition, now I
already
don't if is the more important question.
Achilles.
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 17:26:30 -0800
Subject: Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something in English?
From: lchcmike@gmail.com
To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
Perhaps we can get the shif book translated if it is
interesting. Does
it
exist in Russian, Anton?
I disagree with only one part of what you say about
"cultural-historical"
school never existing. In the period from about 1956
following Stalin's
death, to the death of Luria and Leontiev, there was an
identifiable> > group
of people who met together, talked together, shared
certain ideas and
values. They were also quite influential as heads of some
departments> and
institutes. They did not all agree with each other
(Achille's evocation
of
family strikes me as about right) and Leontiev was both
feared and
distanced
from the others, but they maintained a kind of uneasy
alliance. Here I
would
include
Luria, Zaporzhets, Elkonin, Slavina, Morozova, and perhaps
a few
others.
It is a great irony that NOW there is a journal of
cultural-historical
psychology in Russia. But perhaps, not a bad thing.
mike (socio-cultural-historical activity scholar) :-))
On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
I really understand... Maybe we can say that Vygotsky
himself was
notever
following his own "project"... In some documents
(letters) he
expresshis
desire to dedicate to an species of "cause", the
"reconstruction of
allpsychological science, building an unified approach,
but I really
feel
that therewas no "tradition" stricto sensu, nor no "vigotskian
school"
in a
very definitefashion... Even more to read Vygotsky is
hard exegetical
task,
his all workseems to be a kind of complex million pieces
puzzle, at
least
for us non Russianreaders... I dont know... But when
everybody lies,
we
need
to think aboutmethodological tools to define if there is
a possible
differentiation betweenlies and truth, or we can be
satisfied with
the
impossibility of any truth inany social discourse... In
capitalists> > liberal
regimes, people can tell some liesin order to satisfy
editorial needs
and
market demands too... financial researchfounds to their(our)
projects,
and
so on. Then, nobody is without guilt... inthis great
social game for
personal success in unequal power relationships, between
nations,> > between
institutions, between groups, persons, or evenbetween
brothers at the
same
home...
:-(
Best wishes.
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 11:35:51 -0800
From: the_yasya@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something in English?
To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
Same thing. No answer. Special research needed.
Everybody lies.
From
1930s -- onwards.
Also, note: "Cultural-historical tradition" sensu
Vygotsky never
existed.
And hardly exists today.
----- Original Message ----
From: Achilles Delari Junior
<achilles_delari@hotmail.com>> > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
Sent: Fri, January 15, 2010 12:59:24 PM
Subject: RE: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something in English?
Anton,
This sounds much better! :-)Thank you very much. And
about this
title?Психология глухих. (Под ред. И.М. Соловьева, Ж.И.
Шиф, Т.В.
Розановой
и Н.В. Яшковой), М., 1971.Not already from the 1930s...
What you
recommends?
I found an recent Russian publication from 2006,{
http://bookseller.ru/book.php?n=1454} but I did not feel
secure to
order
in my blind condition tounderstand the book importance
or relation to
historical-cultural tradition...
Thank you.
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 09:48:14 -0800
From: the_yasya@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something in
English?> > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
RE: Its important to know that it is not near to
Vygotsky's> trends.
--
I never said so. I guess I meant to state that the
connection is
not
obvious and requires substantial textual analysis.
Especially so,
given
the
deliberately cryptic style of writing in Soviet
Psychology from the
1930s
onwards...
----- Original Message ----
From: Achilles Delari Junior
<achilles_delari@hotmail.com>> > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
Sent: Fri, January 15, 2010 12:12:00 PM
Subject: RE: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something in
English?> > > > > >
I understand.Thank you very much.I saw that there is
something> from
her
about deaf psychology, for instance, etc.Its important
to know that
it
is
not near to Vygotsky's trends.
Best.
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 08:10:21 -0800
From: the_yasya@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something in
English?> > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
I personally strongly doubt any translation of
this book ever
existed.
Good luck anyway!
-- However, there is other stuff by Shif available
in English,
but it
is hardly related to her Leningrad work and represent
her later
Moscow
work
in defectology...
----- Original Message ----
From: Achilles Delari Junior
<achilles_delari@hotmail.com>> > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
Sent: Fri, January 15, 2010 2:37:26 AM
Subject: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something in English?
Hi XMCA
people…
In order to
help another friend of mine, biologist, studying
scientific> > concepts
development, I’m wonder if you have any notice
about English
(Spanish, French,
etc.) publication from the following text:
Shif, J. I. “Razvitie nauchnykh ponyatii u schko’nika:
Issledovanie k voprosu umstvenogo razvitiya
shkol’nika pri
obuchenii
obshchestvovedeniyu” [The development of
scientific concepts in
the
school
child: The investigation of intellectual
development of the
school
child in
social science instruction]. Moscow – Leningrad:
Gosudarstvennoe
Uchebno-Pedagicheskoe Izdatel’stvo. 1935.
I’m trying
the Russian high now, but we are not so prepared
to actually
translate Russian so
soon, without a huge time spending… And there are
many other
Russian
needs
prior at the schedule, most of that already
provide thanks you
all.
If you have any notice... :-)
Thank you
very much. Good 2010 for all.
Best
wishes.
Achilles.
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--
Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
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