Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something in English?

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

Andy & Larry-- there is a paper by McDermott and Dore from a while back on
conversation as "collusion." Hmmm. Sounds less friendly than collaboration,
but, then, collaboration has its shady meanings too.

Achilles. I first encountered the term, heterochrony, in the work of the
evolutionary biologist, Steven J. Gould. When we combine heterochrony and
synchronic heterogeneity, i believe that non-linear dynamic systems are
perhaps a ubiquitous outcome of the emergent process.

mike
On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 5:03 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

> Larry, the concept which I think transcends conversation or dialogue is
> *collaboration*. This is a term that has been coming up in the Zeitgeist for
> some time now, from many different directions. Its importance is this: it is
> one thing to have a conversation with someone over there on the other side
> of the fence, but until you work together on a shared project, you are just
> sharing words, you do not really share a concept. It's like the difference
> between an acquaintance and a friend. Conversations are informative, but
> they can be based on nothing. You need a joint project to collaborate on.
>
> There is always tradition, by this or some other name (Gadamar for
> "tradition"), the point is that traditions are made up not just of words but
> of activities (the context of the word). So to innovate in a tradition, you
> need to create new activities, i.e., collaborative projects.
>
> That's how I see it. What do you think, Larry?
>
> Andy
>
>
> Larry Purss wrote:
>
>> Hi Achilles
>>  Your questions are fascinating as an inquiry of the constructs or
>> heuristic processes of emerging "traditions" "schools of thought"
>> "paradigms" "Discourses" as cultural patterns which we articulate and
>> INHABIT.
>> When you mention Freud, the extensive literature that has developed
>> exploring the formation of a "tradition" of psychoanalysis as a sociological
>> and cultural "way of knowing" is informative of epistemological ways of
>> creating knowledge. How different versions of the "truth"are contested and
>> "true believers" who are arguing for a specific version (as "dogma")  make
>> validity claims  of CERTAINTY for their "true" version (as they believe
>> Freud saw the world) is a process of narrative construction worth studying
>> in its own right. In fact the sociology of knowledge is a "tradition which
>> does just that. In exploring Vygotsky's contribution to a new emerging
>> "perspective" or vantage point from which to "see" human "nature" the same
>> processes are at PLAY.   The metaphor that best captures the DYNAMIC PROCESS
>> at play in the creation or construction of "traditions" seems to be the
>> metaphor of CONVERSATION (as the process of sharing particular perspectives
>> not to confirm your particular perspective but as a conscious process that a
>> THIRD perspective that is NOVEL and emerges within the open space of the
>> conversation is constructed and each participants version (which is held
>> tentatively as a FALLIBLE perspective) is enlarged as each conversant's
>> "horizon of understanding" is expanded.  The part that I'm curious about (in
>> my ZPD) is how to create social structures where this fallible position can
>> be nurtured and the vitality of conversation as creating THIRDNESS replaces
>> the need for "traditions" as locations of dogma as "truth".
>> It is this SENSIBILITY towards "knowing" within the CHAT collective (in
>> contrast to SENSE) that I appreciate so much as a place which invites an
>> open space to generate THIRDNESS. ( I apologize if I'm using this term in a
>> way that muddles other conceptions of thirdness such as Peirce) "Thirdness"
>> as a spirit of inquiry does capture the spirit of NOVELTY created in
>> communities of inquiry.
>> It also helps to explain when thirdness collapses into CERTAINTY and
>> scholars such as Freud or Vygotsky get locked into dogmatic traditions.  The
>> question to be answered is how do we keep "traditions" open to novelty in a
>> spirit of thirdness.
>> Larry
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Bella Kotik-Friedgut <bella.kotik@gmail.com>
>> Date: Saturday, January 16, 2010 3:03 am
>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something in English?
>> To: lchcmike@gmail.com, "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <
>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>
>>  As a student I took part in Leontjev's course on geleral psychology and
>>> the
>>> his distancing was not obvious (at least for us as students because one
>>> of
>>> the compulsory tasks was to read "  Thinking and Speech" and to be
>>> examined
>>> fully on one book as well as another task to read Leontjev;s "Problems of
>>> development of mind") As for the tradition: Luria's "Basics of
>>> Neuropsychology" is based on Vygotsky's ideas  quite explicitly. Is this
>>> an
>>> expression of cultural-historical tradition?
>>>
>>> Bella Kotik
>>> .
>>> On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 5:57 AM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>  Achilles. I think we have lived to witness exactly "non-liner
>>>>
>>> genetic> course
>>>
>>>> or history."  For many complex reasons Vygotsky "missed"
>>>>
>>> the dominant trend
>>>
>>>> of his times, behaviorism/psychoanalysis" in a way that
>>>>
>>> anticipated the
>>>
>>>> turn
>>>> away from Piaget (who did not become "mainstream" in USA until late
>>>> 1950's-60's) and banishment of Freud from mainstream
>>>>
>>> psychology to cultural
>>>
>>>> studies circles and, in watered down fashion, human potential
>>>>
>>> movements) so
>>>
>>>> that when
>>>> Toulmin wrote about "The mozart of psychology" his clearly
>>>>
>>> idiocyncratic> interpretation fell like a match into a pool of gasoline
>>> (that looked for
>>>
>>>> all the world like a pool of water). The "Vygotsky
>>>> explosion" that many, such as Laszlo Garai in Hungary have
>>>>
>>> written about,
>>>
>>>> and that so irritate many, was the result.
>>>>
>>>> Its really a fascinating process to have lived through,
>>>>
>>> contributed to,
>>>
>>>> been guilty of, etc.
>>>>
>>>> And look at one of its consequences. We chatter across the
>>>>
>>> globe as easily,
>>>
>>>> or more easily, than we get a loaf of bread...... while others
>>>>
>>> starve.>
>>>
>>>> Non linear for sure.
>>>> mike
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 6:37 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
>>>>  achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  I am not historicist, but I can remember something from
>>>>>
>>>> Benjamin about
>>>
>>>> "tradition" x "conservationism" ... That tradition is not always
>>>>> conservative nor authoritarian, there are democratic, dialogical,
>>>>> revolutionary traditions too... I guess - in addition - that
>>>>>
>>>> perhaps> > something like a "cultural tradition" (any cultural
>>> tradition, in diverse
>>>
>>>> fields of society collective actions) can have a non-liner
>>>>>
>>>> genetic course
>>>
>>>> or
>>>>
>>>>> history... I dont know if this is terminologically possible
>>>>>
>>>> or adequate.
>>>
>>>> But
>>>>
>>>>> a psychological theory, and/or approach, and/or
>>>>>
>>>> "perspective" (has some
>>>
>>>> people tell here in Brazil: "historical-cultural
>>>>>
>>>> perspective") - can not
>>>
>>>> be
>>>>
>>>>> like a dogmatic religious tradition (despite I have any
>>>>>
>>>> doubts if even
>>>
>>>> religions can be strictly dogmatic all the time without any
>>>>>
>>>> secular> > influences and changes to dialog with broader cultural
>>> contexts, etc.).
>>>
>>>> In
>>>>
>>>>> this sense neither behaviorism or psychoanalysis could be
>>>>>
>>>> understood as
>>>
>>>> an
>>>>
>>>>> strict "tradition" (there was fights and ruptures all the time,
>>>>>
>>>> dissidences,
>>>>
>>>>> detours, new trends, and interpretations, etc.). Scientific
>>>>>
>>>> thought> > presupposes changes as a sine qua non condition of its own
>>> existence...
>>>
>>>> Of
>>>>
>>>>> course, in the field of the Vygotsky's intelectual,
>>>>>
>>>> cultural, legacy
>>>
>>>> ("puzzle kind" legacy) the discontinuous, intermittent, sometimes
>>>>>
>>>> enigmatic,
>>>>
>>>>> character of the history of this "(non)tradition" it is very
>>>>>
>>>> eminent.> There
>>>
>>>> are several important intellectual disputes about the "correct
>>>>> interpretation", the best exegetic tools, etc. But how can
>>>>>
>>>> we name this
>>>
>>>> historical process? Is there something in this that can have
>>>>>
>>>> the same
>>>
>>>> name?
>>>>
>>>>> Every new name means an actual paradigmatic rupture? A name
>>>>>
>>>> never can be
>>>
>>>> only one meaning, of course. The sample of the name of the
>>>>>
>>>> Journal is
>>>
>>>> really
>>>>
>>>>> worthwhile - a kind of "family name" (as "complex" in
>>>>>
>>>> thought and
>>>
>>>> language
>>>>
>>>>> relations). People sometimes use names, words, has sign of some
>>>>>
>>>> collective
>>>>
>>>>> identity, to be included in a broader common troupe of
>>>>>
>>>> social actors...
>>>
>>>> this
>>>>
>>>>> is far to be something harmonious or ideally synergistic,
>>>>>
>>>> but exist some
>>>
>>>> need to stay in touch with persons that have some common
>>>>>
>>>> interests,> mainly
>>>
>>>> common values, as Mike said. If this can be named a
>>>>>
>>>> tradition, now I
>>>
>>>> already
>>>>
>>>>> don't if is the more important question.
>>>>> Achilles.
>>>>>
>>>>>  Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 17:26:30 -0800
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something in English?
>>>>>> From: lchcmike@gmail.com
>>>>>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps we can get the shif book translated if it is
>>>>>>
>>>>> interesting. Does
>>>
>>>> it
>>>>
>>>>> exist in Russian, Anton?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I disagree with only one part of what you say about
>>>>>>
>>>>> "cultural-historical"
>>>>
>>>>> school never existing. In the period from about 1956
>>>>>>
>>>>> following Stalin's
>>>
>>>> death, to the death of Luria and Leontiev, there was an
>>>>>>
>>>>> identifiable> > group
>>>
>>>> of people who met together, talked together, shared
>>>>>>
>>>>> certain ideas and
>>>
>>>> values. They were also quite influential as heads of some
>>>>>>
>>>>> departments> and
>>>
>>>> institutes. They did not all agree with each other
>>>>>>
>>>>> (Achille's evocation
>>>
>>>> of
>>>>>
>>>>>> family strikes me as about right) and Leontiev was both
>>>>>>
>>>>> feared and
>>>
>>>> distanced
>>>>>
>>>>>> from the others, but they maintained a kind of uneasy
>>>>>>
>>>>> alliance. Here I
>>>
>>>> would
>>>>>
>>>>>> include
>>>>>> Luria, Zaporzhets, Elkonin, Slavina, Morozova, and perhaps
>>>>>>
>>>>> a few
>>>
>>>> others.
>>>>
>>>>> It is a great irony that NOW there is a journal of
>>>>>>
>>>>> cultural-historical
>>>
>>>> psychology in Russia. But perhaps, not a bad thing.
>>>>>> mike (socio-cultural-historical activity scholar) :-))
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
>>>>>> achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  I really understand... Maybe we can say that Vygotsky
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> himself was
>>>
>>>> notever
>>>>>
>>>>>> following his own "project"... In some documents
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> (letters) he
>>>
>>>> expresshis
>>>>>
>>>>>> desire to dedicate to an species of "cause", the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> "reconstruction of
>>>
>>>> allpsychological science, building an unified approach,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> but I really
>>>
>>>> feel
>>>>>
>>>>>> that therewas no "tradition" stricto sensu, nor no "vigotskian
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> school"
>>>>
>>>>> in a
>>>>>
>>>>>> very definitefashion... Even more to read Vygotsky is
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> hard exegetical
>>>
>>>> task,
>>>>>
>>>>>> his all workseems to be a kind of complex million pieces
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> puzzle, at
>>>
>>>> least
>>>>>
>>>>>> for us non Russianreaders... I dont know... But when
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> everybody lies,
>>>
>>>> we
>>>>
>>>>> need
>>>>>
>>>>>> to think aboutmethodological tools to define if there is
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> a possible
>>>
>>>> differentiation betweenlies and truth, or we can be
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> satisfied with
>>>
>>>> the
>>>>
>>>>> impossibility of any truth inany social discourse... In
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> capitalists> > liberal
>>>
>>>> regimes, people can tell some liesin order to satisfy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> editorial needs
>>>
>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>>> market demands too... financial researchfounds to their(our)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> projects,
>>>>
>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>>> so on. Then, nobody is without guilt... inthis great
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> social game for
>>>
>>>> personal success in unequal power relationships, between
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> nations,> > between
>>>
>>>> institutions, between groups, persons, or evenbetween
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> brothers at the
>>>
>>>> same
>>>>>
>>>>>> home...
>>>>>>> :-(
>>>>>>> Best wishes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 11:35:51 -0800
>>>>>>>> From: the_yasya@yahoo.com
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something in English?
>>>>>>>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Same thing. No answer. Special research needed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Everybody lies.
>>>
>>>> From
>>>>
>>>>> 1930s -- onwards.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also, note: "Cultural-historical tradition" sensu
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Vygotsky never
>>>
>>>> existed.
>>>>>
>>>>>> And hardly exists today.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>>>>>>> From: Achilles Delari Junior
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>> > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>
>>>> Sent: Fri, January 15, 2010 12:59:24 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something in English?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anton,
>>>>>>>> This sounds much better! :-)Thank you very much. And
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> about this
>>>
>>>> title?Психология глухих. (Под ред. И.М. Соловьева, Ж.И.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Шиф, Т.В.
>>>
>>>> Розановой
>>>>>
>>>>>> и Н.В. Яшковой), М., 1971.Not already from the 1930s...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> What you
>>>
>>>> recommends?
>>>>>
>>>>>> I found an recent Russian publication from 2006,{
>>>>>>> http://bookseller.ru/book.php?n=1454} but I did not feel
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> secure to
>>>
>>>> order
>>>>>
>>>>>> in my blind condition tounderstand the book importance
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> or relation to
>>>
>>>> historical-cultural tradition...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thank you.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 09:48:14 -0800
>>>>>>>>> From: the_yasya@yahoo.com
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something in
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> English?> > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>
>>>> RE: Its important to know that it is not near to
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Vygotsky's> trends.
>>>
>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>>> I never said so. I guess I meant to state that the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> connection is
>>>
>>>> not
>>>>>
>>>>>> obvious and requires substantial textual analysis.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Especially so,
>>>
>>>> given
>>>>
>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>> deliberately cryptic style of writing in Soviet
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Psychology from the
>>>
>>>> 1930s
>>>>>
>>>>>> onwards...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>>>>>>>> From: Achilles Delari Junior
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>> > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>
>>>> Sent: Fri, January 15, 2010 12:12:00 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something in
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> English?> > > > > >
>>>
>>>> I understand.Thank you very much.I saw that there is
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> something> from
>>>
>>>> her
>>>>>
>>>>>> about deaf psychology, for instance, etc.Its important
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> to know that
>>>
>>>> it
>>>>
>>>>> is
>>>>>
>>>>>> not near to Vygotsky's trends.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 08:10:21 -0800
>>>>>>>>>> From: the_yasya@yahoo.com
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something in
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> English?> > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>
>>>> I personally strongly doubt any translation of
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> this book ever
>>>
>>>> existed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Good luck anyway!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -- However, there is other stuff by Shif available
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> in English,
>>>
>>>> but it
>>>>>
>>>>>> is hardly related to her Leningrad work and represent
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> her later
>>>
>>>> Moscow
>>>>
>>>>> work
>>>>>
>>>>>> in defectology...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>>>>>>>>> From: Achilles Delari Junior
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>> > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>
>>>> Sent: Fri, January 15, 2010 2:37:26 AM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something in English?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi XMCA
>>>>>>>>>> people…
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In order to
>>>>>>>>>> help another friend of mine, biologist, studying
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> scientific> > concepts
>>>
>>>> development, I’m wonder if you have any notice
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> about English
>>>
>>>> (Spanish, French,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> etc.) publication from the following text:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Shif, J. I. “Razvitie nauchnykh ponyatii u schko’nika:
>>>>>>>>>> Issledovanie k voprosu umstvenogo razvitiya
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> shkol’nika pri
>>>
>>>> obuchenii
>>>>>
>>>>>> obshchestvovedeniyu” [The development of
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> scientific concepts in
>>>
>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> child: The investigation of intellectual
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> development of the
>>>
>>>> school
>>>>>
>>>>>> child in
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> social science instruction]. Moscow – Leningrad:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Gosudarstvennoe
>>>>
>>>>> Uchebno-Pedagicheskoe Izdatel’stvo. 1935.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I’m trying
>>>>>>>>>> the Russian high now, but we are not so prepared
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> to actually
>>>
>>>> translate Russian so
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> soon, without a huge time spending… And there are
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> many other
>>>
>>>> Russian
>>>>>
>>>>>> needs
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> prior at the schedule, most of that already
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> provide thanks you
>>>
>>>> all.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you have any notice... :-)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thank you
>>>>>>>>>> very much. Good 2010 for all.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Best
>>>>>>>>>> wishes.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Achilles.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  _________________________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>> O Novo Windows 7 funciona do jeito que você quer.
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>>>>>>>>> Clique aqui
>>>
>>>> para
>>>>>
>>>>>> conhecer!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>  _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>> --
>>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
> --
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> Hegel, Goethe and the Planet: 13 February 2010.
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