Ain't no answer sheet! LOL This "quiz" is nothing more than
comparing Ilyenkov's actual answers to one's own views.
I've simplified this thing. It did need streamlining. There are
now 25 Ilyenkov propositions.
If my editing is accurate, Ilyenkov's points are preserved in
each numbered sentence below. I kept the numbers from the
previous version.
Martin's very helpful reading of these passages confirms and
clarifies my interpretations. Thank you, Martin. I've added
headlines (in my words) to clarify Ilyenkov's key themes. As can
be seen, I've also used some of Martin's nicely worded summaries
for this task (and could have used more - I'm kind of duplicating
what he did).
Some of these statements by Ilyenkov seem to me to be in conflict
with some of the points you have been recently making, Andy. See
what you think.
This is an 'open book' quiz, by the way - you are welcome to
consult any texts ... :-))
from **Leninist Dialectics and the Metaphysics of Positivism**,
Chapter One, by EV Ilyenkov, 1979, New Park, material below
edited by Steve Gabosch, Sept 2009, downloaded from
http://www.marxists.org/archive/ilyenkov/works/positive/positi.htm
Ilyenkov is addressing the epistemological question: What is the
relationship between consciousness and the world itself?
**********
A. << No middle path is possible.>>
**********
1. … there is no middle here … [no] middle path …
**********
B. << Consciousness is derived from, produced from, and
secondary to matter.>>
**********
3. These concepts [that is, the two general concepts which must
be clearly differentiated] are matter and consciousness.
4. [By consciousness we are referring to the] psyche, the ideal,
spirit, soul, will, etc. etc.
6. ‘Consciousness’ [in its most general sense] can only be
defined by clearly contrasting it with ‘matter’ [in its most
general sense.]
7. [Moreover, consciousness can only be contrasted with matter]
as something that is secondary, produced and derived.
9. … [Matter] can only be defined through its opposite, and only
if one of the opposites is fixed as primary, and the other arises
from it.
**********
C. <<For materialists, matter is the basis of epistemology. For
idealists, the basis is consciousness.>>
**********
12. Lenin's position … [is as follows]: for materialism …
matter – the objective reality given to us in sensation … is the
basis of the theory of knowledge (epistemology) …
13. … for idealism of any type, the basis of epistemology is
consciousness ...
**********
D. <<Just as social being, (that is, material and economic
relations) precedes and exists independently of social
consciousness, social consciousness (as does matter) precedes and
exists independently of individual consciousness.>> <<Btw,
Martin has an interesting objection to Ilyenkov's claim that
'primary' things exist independently of 'secondary' things
insofar as humans are concerned.>>
**********
15. [Social consciousness is sometimes described as] …
'collectively-organised' … experience …
16. … the relationship of matter to consciousness is
complicated by the fact that social consciousness … from the very
beginning precedes individual consciousness as something already
given, and existing before, outside, and independent of
individual consciousness.
17. Just as matter does.
**********
E. <<Individual consciousness is formed to a greater degree by
social consciousness than it is by the material world. At the
same time, as explained by Marx, social consciousness is derived
from social being, the system of material and economic relations
between people.>>
**********
20. ... social consciousness ... forms ... [the individual’s]
consciousness to a much greater degree than the 'material world'
[does].
22. But social consciousness, according to Marx, is not
'primary', but secondary, derived from social being, i.e. the
system of material and economic relations between people.
**********
F. Martin summarized the next sentences very nicely as follows:
"<We are *given* the world in sensation. But it is in thought
that the world is *cognised.*>"
**********
24. It is … not true that the world is cognised in our sensations.
25. In sensations the external world is only given to us, just
as it is given to a dog.
26. ... [The external world] is cognised not in sensations, but
in the activity of thought ...
**********
G. <<Lenin explained that dialectical logic is the science of
discovering the universal laws of human and natural development.
These are the objective laws of development of the material
world, which includes the natural world, the socio-historical
world, and objective reality in general. These laws are
reflected in the historical consciousness of humanity.>>
**********
27. [Dialectical] Logic is defined by Lenin … as the science of
those universal laws … to which the development of the entire
aggregate knowledge of mankind is objectively subordinated.
28. These laws are understood [by dialectical materialism] as
the objective laws of development of the material world, of both
the natural and socio-historical world, of objective reality in
general.
29. ... [These laws] are reflected in the consciousness of
mankind and verified by thousands of years of human practice.
**********
H. <<Martin: "<Thought arises in material activity, even in
animals. In humans it takes a more advanced form, in which
activity is adjusted to signs.>" I continue: However, if one
proceeds from the perspective of individual experience, the sign
will be taken as the starting point in the theory of knowledge,
which will lead to idealist-leaning errors.">>
**********
35. Thought arises within and during the process of material
action as one of its features, one of its aspects, and only later
is divided into a special activity (isolated in space and time),
finding [the] 'sign' form only in man.
36. A completely different picture arises when, proceeding from
individual experience, it is precisely the verbally formed world
which is taken as the starting point in the theory of knowledge.
37. It is all the more easy to yield to such an illusion, since
in individual experience, words (and signs in general) are in
actual fact just as much given to sensual contemplation as are
the sun, rivers and mountains, statues and paintings, etc. etc.
38. Here are the roots of idealism in its 'sign-symbolic'
variation.
**********
I. Martin again: "<It is a mistake to try to understand human
knowledge in terms of individual consciousness or experience. But
it is also a mistake to try to understand knowledge in terms of
*social* consciousness.>"
**********
39. If one proceeds from individual experience, making it the
point of departure and basis of the theory of knowledge, then
idealism is inevitable.
40. But it is also inevitable if one relies on 'collective
experience', if the latter is interpreted as something
independent of being, as something existing independently, as
something primary.
************
<end of 'quiz'>
************
- Steve
On Sep 25, 2009, at 5:28 PM, Andy Blunden wrote:
I can't understand your quiz, Steve. Could you perhaps make us a
shorter version with answers at the end of the post?
Andy
Steve Gabosch wrote:
I have something fun, entertaining and educational for everyone
on xmca!
It just so happens that I took a close look at the Ilyenkov
passages following Andy's quotes, did a little tinkering with
the text, and came up with something fun: the Ilyenkov
Epistemology Quiz, which anyone can take right on their own
personal computer!
Ilyenkov asks some fundamental questions regarding
epistemology: "Where is the clear-cut dividing line between …
philosophical idealism and … philosophical materialism? … which
of these two points of departure is determining the direction
of all your thought, regardless of the subject of your
reflection … ? Here … is the question: take your thought, your
consciousness of the world, and the world itself ... what is
the relationship between them?"
This can also be called: The How Much Do You Agree With
Ilyenkov on Consciousness? Test ...
(Hmm. Somehow, it doesn't seem likely that this will become
the rage on Facebook ... does it? ... LOL ...)
Taking this "quiz" is very simple. It is comprised of 40
propositional statements by Ilyenkov, which I edited for
clarity, about the relationship of consciousness and
materiality, from the first chapter of his short book "Leninist
Dialectics and the Metaphysics of Positivism" (1979, New
Park). To take the quiz, simply list the propositions that you
agree with, and those you don't agree with, count them all up,
and give Ilyenkov a score.
Read critically like this, sentence by sentence, Ilyenkov is
surprisingly clear. But one still has to think pretty hard
about what he is saying. Hopefully, people will find it
worthwhile to do so.
Here is a little explanation of the editing I did to create
this (this is the fine print part - can be skipped). What I
have done is edit 15 of Ilyenkov's paragraphs (starting where
Andy's quotes began) into what wound up becoming 40
propositional statements. They read quite coherently. This
material makes for a decent introduction to both Ilyenkov and
dialectical materialism. I eliminated his references to the
Machists to keep things focused on his propositional statements
about epistemological issues, and took out various other (for
this purpose) secondary passages for the same reason. This
makes him a little easier to grasp - he has a tendency to make
a lot of side points as he goes. Also, I did some sentence
rearranging to help clarify the specific proposition that is
being made. There are a couple sentences which could be
interpreted in different ways if they are not read very
closely, so I included my interpretations below them. And I
spelled out one or two important implications that Ilyenkov
makes but does not explicitly state. (He makes these points in
many other places in his writings, so they are supportable.)
Everyone will see what I did - I am trying to be completely
transparent. If I have misinterpreted or muddled Ilyenkov in
any way, please let me know!
I would be very interesting to compare notes on what
propositions, formulations, ideas etc. people agree and
disagree on. Some may disagree quite sharply on some points,
and others may find themselves surprisingly in agreement with
Ilyenkov on some issues but didn't know it. Some might find
this stimulating ideawise. Others who are bored by
philosophical discourse might save this for later if they need
something to put them to sleep tonight! LOL This little quiz
might even help clarify aspects of this interesting discussion
on consciousness. Fun for the whole family! :-))
Andy, after carefully reading your posts about the how
"consciousness is what is given to us" and "the idea of matter
is derived from consciousness" - as well as other things you
have said from time to time - it will be very interesting to
see how you "score" Ilyenkov's positions on epistemology. I
would actually be quite interested in everyone's thoughts ...
**********************
The Internet Ilyenkov Epistemology Quiz also known as The How
Much Do You Agree With Ilyenkov on Consciousness? Test
from **Leninist Dialectics and the Metaphysics of Positivism**
by EV Ilyenkov, edited by Steve Gabosch, Sept 2009
downloaded from
http://www.marxists.org/archive/ilyenkov/works/positive/positi.htm
***********************
a. Where is the clear-cut dividing line between …
philosophical idealism and … philosophical materialism? …
b. … which of these two points of departure is determining the
direction of all your thought, regardless of the subject of
your reflection … ?
c. Here … is the question: take your thought, your
consciousness of the world, and the world itself ... what is
the relationship between them?
1. … there is no middle here … [no] middle path …
2. In philosophy the 'party of the golden mean' is the 'party
of the brainless', [that is, those that attempt the middle path
are destined to fail if they] ... try to unite materialism with
idealism in an eclectic way, by means of smoothing out the
basic contradictions, and by means of muddling the most general
... and clear concepts.
3. These concepts [the two general concepts which must be
clearly differentiated] are matter and consciousness.
4. [By consciousness we are referring to the] psyche, the
ideal, spirit, soul, will, etc. etc.
5. 'Consciousness' – let us take this term as Lenin did – is
the most general concept which can only be defined by clearly
contrasting it with the most general concept of 'matter', as
something secondary, produced and derived.
6. [[sg interpretation: ‘Consciousness’ [in its most general
sense] can only be defined by clearly contrasting it with
‘matter’ [in its most general sense.]]]
7. [[sg interpretation: …moreover … [consciousness can only be
contrasted with matter] as something that is secondary,
produced and derived.]]
8. Dialectics consists in not being able to define matter as
such …
9. … it [matter] can only be defined through its opposite, and
only if one of the opposites is fixed as primary, and the other
arises from it.
10. [[sg interpretation: Dialectics can only define things
through their opposites, and furthermore can only do so if one
of these opposites is fixed as primary and the other as arising
from it.]]
11. [[sg interpretation of an implication made above: In
dialectical materialism, the material is primary; and
consciousness, its opposite, arises from it.]]
12. Lenin's position … [is as follows]: for materialism …
matter – the objective reality given to us in sensation … is
the basis of the theory of knowledge (epistemology) …
13. … for idealism of any type, the basis of epistemology is
consciousness ...
14. [Consciousness for the idealist can take a multitude of
forms and can appear] under one or another of its pseudonyms
(be it the 'psychical', 'conscious' or 'unconscious', be it the
'system of forms of collectively-organised experience' or
'objective spirit', the individual or collective psyche,
individual or social consciousness).]
15. [Social consciousness is sometimes described as] …
'collectively-organised' … experience …
16. … the relationship of matter to consciousness is
complicated by the fact that social consciousness … from the
very beginning precedes individual consciousness as something
already given, and existing before, outside, and independent of
individual consciousness.
17. Just as matter does.
18. [[sg interpretation: Just as social consciousness does,
matter, from the very beginning, precedes individual
consciousness as something already given.]]
19. [There is] … even more [to it] than that.
20. This social consciousness – forms ... [the individual’s]
consciousness to a much greater degree than [does] the
'material world'.
21. [Social consciousness] of course, in its individualised
form, [takes] … the form of the consciousness of one's closest
teachers, and after that, of the entire circle of people who
appear in the field of vision of a person …
22. But social consciousness, according to Marx, is not
'primary', but secondary, derived from social being, i.e. the
system of material and economic relations between people.
23. [[sg interpretation: According to Marx, social
consciousness, which is secondary, is derived from social
being, which is the system of material and economic relations
between people.]]
24. It is … not true that the world is cognised in our
sensations.
25. In sensations the external world is only given to us, just
as it is given to a dog.
26. ... [The external world] is cognised not in sensations,
but in the activity of thought ...
27. [Dialectical] Logic is defined by Lenin … as the science
of those universal laws … to which the development of the
entire aggregate knowledge of mankind is objectively subordinated.
28. These laws are understood [by dialectical materialism] as
the objective laws of development of the material world, of
both the natural and socio-historical world, of objective
reality in general.
29. ... [These laws] are reflected in the consciousness of
mankind and verified by thousands of years of human practice.
d. What is … 'thought'?
30. … [A materialist] line of thought [about what thought is]
proceeds from Spinoza. He understands thinking to be an
inherent capability, characteristic not of all bodies, but only
of thinking material bodies.
31. With the help of this capability, a body can construct its
activities in the spatially determined world, in conformity
with the 'form and disposition' of all other bodies external to
it, both 'thinking' and 'non-thinking'.
32. Spinoza therefore includes thinking among the categories
of the attributes of substance, such as extension.
33. In this form ... [thinking] is, according to Spinoza,
characteristic also of animals.
34. For him [Spinoza] even an animal possesses a soul, and
this view distinguishes Spinoza from Descartes, who considered
that an animal is simply an 'automaton', a very complex 'machine'.
35. Thought arises within and during the process of material
action as one of its features, one of its aspects, and only
later is divided into a special activity (isolated in space and
time), finding [the] 'sign' form only in man.
36. A completely different picture arises when, proceeding
from individual experience, it is precisely the verbally formed
world which is taken as the starting point in the theory of
knowledge.
37. It is all the more easy to yield to such an illusion,
since in individual experience, words (and signs in general)
are in actual fact just as much given to sensual contemplation
as are the sun, rivers and mountains, statues and paintings,
etc. etc.
38. Here are the roots of idealism in its 'sign-symbolic'
variation.
39. If one proceeds from individual experience, making it the
point of departure and basis of the theory of knowledge, then
idealism is inevitable.
40. But it is also inevitable if one relies on 'collective
experience', if the latter is interpreted as something
independent of being, as something existing independently, as
something primary.
<Ilyenkov moves on to other questions at this point in the text.>
<End of quiz.>
So how did you score Ilyenkov?
Cheers,
- Steve_______________________________________________
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------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
Ilyenkov $20 ea
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