Re: [xmca] Vygotsky on Imagination and Creativity [and imitation]

Phil and Michael--

Seems like a new set of ideas to me, old as their inspirations may be, they
are being thought about in a new context which is always useful.

The topic of imitation, and the Bakhtin quote, seem important to the
discussion of zopeds, Phil. LSV pointed out that we cannot imitate behaviors
way beyond our competence, so the ability to imitate is important. For
example, I would not imitate a professional dancer, or mathematician, try as
I might. And, as Baldwin points out in this quote, imitation is not an exact
copy and cannot be when it is successful. Perhaps the other side of
internalization not being a copy?

Valsinder also latched onto the idea of persistent imitation. how does it
help explain language learning?
mike

On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 11:39 PM, Phil Chappell <philchappell@mac.com>
wrote:

> Thanks for the clarification, Michael. Always interesting metaphors used
> by the folks here. I do empathise with you and the finalisation of your
> thesis, as that's where I'm at this year: I feel that some concepts and
> personalised metaphors become very precious to me! I have found Baldwin's
> differentiation between simple and persistent imitation to be helpful in
> thinking about internalisation vis-a-vis language learning. I fear I'm
> straying from Mike's original intent here but will end with another quote
> from Baldwin that gives more food for thought:
>
> Imitation to the intelligent and earnest imitator is never slavish, never
> mere repetition; it is, on the contrary, a means for further ends, a method
> of absorbing what is present in others and of making it over in forms
> peculiar to one's own temper and valuable to one's own genius. {Baldwin
> 1906} p. 22
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Phil
>
>
> On 30/03/2008, at 12:58 PM, Michael G. Levykh wrote:
>
> > Phil,
> >
> > Just a quick clarification: after re-reading my posted email, I realized
> > that the word "dissonant" could be interpreted as negative. In music,
> > dissonance reflects tension and culmination which needs to be resolved.
> > Hence, "dissonant chord" should be read as motivational chord.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Michael.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> > On
> > Behalf Of Michael G. Levykh
> > Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 5:53 PM
> > To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity'
> > Subject: RE: [xmca] Vygotsky on Imagination and Creativity [and
> > imitation]
> >
> >
> > Yes, Phil. Thank you for the quotation and the webpage.
> >
> > It does strike a few dissonant chords; particularly, in suggesting that
> > emotions cannot be "approached" directly. In this case, imitation
> > becomes an
> > appropriate mediator. But there is more than imitation. Here, there is
> > an
> > interaction with others who also carry their own emotional experiences.
> > So
> > it is, as I speculate, not only through understanding others that we
> > understand ourselves, but also through the emotional experiences
> > (perezhivaniye) of others do we also understand (and appreciate) our own
> > perezhivaniye. I can also imagine that we would not normally engage into
> > imitation of other people unless we feel somehow "connected directly
> > with/to
> > them and/or with a common activity/goal. Hence, emotional connection is
> > "the
> > beginning and the end, the alpha and omega, etc."
> >
> > Forgive me for my own spin of inferences, but as I am finalizing my
> > thesis,
> > there are so many different aspects of learning, teaching, developing,
> > and
> > living that come together (in my understanding) through emotional
> > mediation.
> >
> > Thank you, Phil.
> > Cheers,
> > Michael.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> > On
> > Behalf Of Phil Chappell
> > Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 5:31 PM
> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotsky on Imagination and Creativity [and
> > imitation]
> >
> > I can't help but chime in on your comments and questions, Michael, as
> > I am at the moment re-reading Baldwin on conscious imitation, where he
> > proposes, as LSV hints at in the early part of the paper being
> > discussed here, imitation being the genesis of "consciousness of
> > emotion". I have been working on how Baldwin's writings on imitation
> > can help explain internalisation in a more elaborate way, and your
> > question "How exactly can emotional integration also be generalized
> > into adult education and (hopefully) development? I need to read more
> > to attempt answering this question." struck a chord - (excuse the
> > excessive quoting here) Baldwin writes:
> >
> > (324)
> > Further, this process of taking in elements from the social world by
> > imitation and giving them out again by a reverse process of invention
> > (for such the sequel proves invention to be: the modified way in which
> > I put things together in reading the elements which I get from nature
> > and other men, back into nature and other men again) -- this process
> > never stops. We never outgrow imitation, nor our social obligation to
> > it. Our sense of self is constantly growing richer and fuller as we
> > understand others better, -- as we get into social co-operation with
> > them, -- and our understanding of them is in turn enriched by the
> > additions which our own private experience makes to the lessons which
> > we learn from them. These and other aspects of social emotion, which
> > come to mind in connection with this suggestive topic, are reserved.
> > [10]
> >
> > If this strikes a chord back at you, you can read more at the
> > following link.
> >
> >
> > http://www.brocku.ca/MeadProject/Baldwin/Baldwin_1906/Baldwin_1906_11.html
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Phil
> >
> >
> > On 30/03/2008, at 10:34 AM, Michael G. Levykh wrote:
> >
> > > Thank you, Mike, for asking this question. It has been a while
> > > since I read
> > > this work, but because of your question, as I now skim through the
> > > text,
> > > Vygotsky's quoting Pistrak, come to mind as being an extremely
> > > relevant to
> > > my interests:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "It is not so much that artistic education provides knowledge or
> > > skills, but
> > > rather it gives a tone to life or, perhaps, it would be more
> > > accurate to
> > > say-a background for living. The convictions that we may inculcate
> > > in school
> > > through knowledge, only grow roots in the child's psyche when these
> > > convictions are reinforced emotionally" (p. 55).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > For me, the emotional reinforcement is an equivalent to (a)
> > > internalization
> > > (ingrowing, vraschivaniye) and (b) integration of emotions into the
> > > entire
> > > psychological structure (fusing with every higher mental function and
> > > system). Although in this particular quotation Pistrak talks about
> > > artistic
> > > education, there is a sense that his thought is generalized across
> > > curriculum so as to make every subject (even every lesson in every
> > > subject)
> > > artistic, imaginative; that is, to reinforce with (in my
> > > understanding)
> > > positive emotional experience. The result is the child's feeling the
> > > "ownership" of possessing and acting upon such knowledge.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > How exactly can emotional integration also be generalized into adult
> > > education and (hopefully) development? I need to read more to attempt
> > > answering this question.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Michael.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _____
> > >
> > > From: Mike Cole [mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com]
> > > Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 3:17 PM
> > > To: Michael G. Levykh
> > > Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotsky on Imagination and Creativity
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks Michael.
> > > What are your thoughts about this essay/monograph?
> > > mike
> > >
> > > On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 11:55 AM, Michael G. Levykh <
> > > mglevykh@telus.net
> > >
> > > >
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > Please, find attached a PDF file you requested.
> > > Cheers,
> > > Michael.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
> > > bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> > > Behalf Of Mike Cole
> > > Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 6:40 AM
> > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > Subject: [xmca] Vygotsky on Imagination and Creativity
> > >
> > > One of the interesting sessions I attended was the workshop hosted
> > > by Lois
> > > on Sunday. I used as my text the special issue of JREEP (J. Russian
> > > and
> > > East European Psych) devoted to
> > > his monograph "Imagination and creativity in childhood." I thought
> > > that
> > > this material was on xmca somewhere, but apparently it is not. If
> > > anyone has
> > > a pdf and would send it to me, I would
> > > post it for all. I found it simply packed with provocative and
> > > important
> > > ideas. Meantime, here is the ref.
> > >
> > > JREEP, January-Feb. 2004. Vol 42, no 1.(whole issue).
> > >
> > > mike
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
> > >
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Received on Sun Mar 30 05:50 PDT 2008