[Xmca-l] Re: Mystery progressive educator?

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

So, two, intertwined conversation here, at least.
1. How to think of going from the "simple" to the "complex" a la Spencer vs
Davydov and
2. Why is that quotation by Herbert Spencer (found in a footnote to a book
by Ushinsky
that I decided would survive the holocaust of moving offices) interesting
and what does
it imply for ideas we often discuss here.

Spencer plays an important role in the 19th Century debates about cultural
difference and
evolution of society that part of the home ground of the
cultural-historical psychologists
in Russia and Germany, and elsewhere among old time scholars we draw upon.

For a summary of our consideration of his views on education fit with his
view of social progress and social darwinism, see the first couple of pages
of lchc's 1983 article on
culture and cognitive development at

http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Pubs/Culture-CognitiveDev.pdf

I wonder how Thorndike draws upon Spencer, in contrast with, say, Dewey?

As to finding the quotation on the internet, I thought that was what would
happen. I tested it out. But I decided it was still worth getting people to
think about its origins, and how its origins are connected to our own.

mike


On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 4:07 PM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>wrote:

> On 18 August 2013 21:54, <carolmacdon@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi Hugh + thread
> >
> > Shame on you guys. Mike gave us a genuine puzzle and we could spent happy
> > hours surmising who this might be, and now the puzzle is flattened by
> > google. Instant gratification!
> >
> > I think it is the complex within the simple, Huw?
> >
>
> Ah, I had a spatial metaphor in mind, Carol.  Domain as a map.  As such,
> one may go beyond the simple, that is carefully revealed within the complex
> by domain/historical analysis, to discover the complex.
>
> Huw
>
>
>
> > Carol
> >
> > Sent via my BlackBerry from Vodacom - let your email find you!
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
> > Sender: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2013 23:18:53
> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity<xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> > Reply-To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Mystery progressive educator?
> >
> > Most of the discord is in the terms rather than the meaning, I think.
> >
> > For me, the main problem is his "simple to complex", I would say, rather,
> > "the simple within the complex".
> >
> > Given the importance of the introduction to problems, "self evolution"
> > hardly seems appropriate.  Presumably "instruction" had a fairly
> > unambiguous meaning in the 19th century.  But I don't think things have
> > changed that much.
> >
> > But this continues to be a thought provoking puzzle: to the degree that a
> > student is guided, they are not exercising their own skill in orienting
> to
> > the task.  Spencer, it seems, is suggesting guidance is best resumed when
> > the student loses their appreciation for the task.  So where do we locate
> > the tenacity to accommodate unresolved problems etc?
> >
> > But then Spencer was a philosopher, which locates him amongst those who
> > chose thinking as a way of life...
> >
> > I recall reading recently that the development of personality was
> > acknowledged by Danish legislative governance for education.  In reading
> > Davydov it seems he had considerable success in raising a population of
> > students who were doing something resembling intensive thinking...
> >
> > But for those who do not value thought etc. in quite the same way,
> > schooling provides a different, more immediate, need. It seems to me that
> > in all forms of instruction the question is implicated -- what kind of
> > development (personality) am I working with/ supporting?
> >
> > Huw
> >
> >
> >
> > On 17 August 2013 20:47, Martin John Packer <mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Who also coined "the survival of the fittest," so perhaps it's no great
> > > surprise.
> > >
> > > Martin
> > >
> > > On Aug 17, 2013, at 2:24 PM, "White, Phillip" <
> > Phillip.White@ucdenver.edu>
> > >  wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Even earlier, Herbert Spencer, 1870's.
> > > >
> > > > Phillip
> > > >
> > > > Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
> > > > From: Peter Smagorinsky
> > > > Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2013 12:54 PM
> > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > Reply To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Mystery progressive educator?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > And, in 1896,
> http://www.gutenberg.org/files/20513/20513-h/20513-h.htm
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Peter Smagorinsky
> > > > Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2013 2:48 PM
> > > > To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Mystery progressive educator?
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://archive.org/stream/teachingoforalen00bolerich/teachingoforalen00bolerich_djvu.txtincludesthequote as its framing perspective, so it must have impressed a
> > > few people. Note that the book is from 1914, the year before Vygotsky
> > began
> > > his work on The Psychology of Art.
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole
> > > > Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2013 1:30 PM
> > > > To: xmca-l@ucsd.edu
> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Mystery progressive educator?
> > > >
> > > > Ran across the following interesting statement by accident and was
> > > surprised a little at the authorship. I thought others might be
> > interested
> > > in it as well. I'll leave off authorship because part of what I found
> > > interesting was in figuring out who it was.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > mike
> > > > ---------------
> > > >
> > > > Children should be led to make their own investigations, and to draw
> > > this won inferences. They should to *told* as little as possible, and
> > > indeed to *discover *as much as possible. Humanity has progressed
> solely
> > by
> > > self-instruction;
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>