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Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
- To: ablunden@mira.net, "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
- Subject: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
- From: "Engeström, Yrjö H M" <yrjo.engestrom@helsinki.fi>
- Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 11:19:11 +0300
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Dear colleagues, enough of this! Of course the triangular model of an activity system is a representation of a unit of analysis for me, no matter what Andy has dreamed up and continues to proclaim about my thinking.
Yrjö Engeström
On Jun 12, 2013, at 5:57 AM, Andy Blunden wrote:
> Antti, I was directing my question to you and your remarks.
>
> In Engestrom's highlky regarded, now out of print, 1987 text "Learning by Expanding", the famous triangle logo is given as Figure 2.6, and after a long consideration of "candidates" for "unit of analysis" he says the following about this triangle: "The model of Figure 2.6 may now be compared with the four criteria of a root model of human activity, set forth earlier in this chapter." and goes on to list and consider the criteria which are commonly associated in this current with the notion of "unit of analysis." (numerous citations are not required). But he never said that the triangle is a unit of analaysis, and it is not, and cannot be. He said it is a root model and it is. The root model is a system concept, not a unit of analysis.
>
> Do you think it possible that this has been the source of some confusion?
>
> Andy
>
> Antti Rajala wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Andy for sharing the wikipedia text, and your thoughts about the issue! The thoughts about unit of analysis were my own interpretation of the study, and I am not sure if the issue you raised concerns the original study.
>>
>> Warm wishes, Antti
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 9:20 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Antti, here is a link to th eWikipedia on "System concept"
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System
>> Why do Activity Theorists in Engstrom's current of thinking mix up
>> the idea of a system concept with a unit of analysis?
>>
>> Andy
>>
>>
>> Antti Rajala wrote:
>>
>> Greg,
>>
>> You asked:
>> ”My question is getting at where we locate "agency". In
>> individuals alone?
>> Or as possibly being distributed among multiple people and
>> perhaps in
>> amanner that isn't recognizable to the individual. But maybe
>> there is
>> aconcept for that that is different from "double stimulation.”
>>
>> I think that double stimulation can be analyzed not only at
>> the individual
>> level but at the collective level as well. Actually, the study
>> of Engeström
>> and Sannino (2013) that I referred to in my earlier email
>> gives a nice
>> example. The study also involves in some respects a similar
>> situation as
>> the one that you described having taken place with the workers
>> in Malaysia.
>>
>> According to my reading, the study describes a change laboratory
>> intervention taking place in a university library. The library
>> as invited
>> researchers to help them find new forms of work with research
>> groups. A
>> first stimulus emerges in the course of the change laboratory
>> intervention,
>> as a member of one of the research groups that the university
>> library is
>> delivering services says that they can find these services in
>> the internet
>> without the help of the library. Thus a problem emerges for
>> the librarians
>> to collectively produce a service that would be genuinely
>> helpful for the
>> research groups.
>>
>> In solving this problem, they organize their collective action
>> with the
>> help of a second stimulus, namely the concept of knotworking
>> (Engeström,
>> Engeström & Vähäaho, 1999) that the researchers have
>> introduced in the
>> beginning of the change laboratory. In particular, a new
>> working group, a
>> knot, is formed that starts to work with the emergent problem
>> of inventing
>> a useful service.
>>
>> What is in my opinion very innovative, Engeström and Sannino
>> also provide
>> an example of this second stimulus, the concept of
>> knotworking, becoming an
>> initial theoretical generalization that is reworked and
>> enriched through a
>> process of ascending from abstract to concrete as the
>> intervention evolves.
>> Specifically, in the end of the intervention, the concept of
>> knotworking
>> gives rise to many concrete, practical applications of the
>> librarians' work
>> at multiple levels of hierarchy.
>>
>> As for the unit of analysis, I think that the unit of analysis
>> in the study
>> is the intersection of several activity systems, the
>> university libarary
>> and the research groups, In terms of agency, one can maybe
>> talk about
>> shared transformative agency in which the subject is not an
>> individual but
>> a collective. (More about shared transformative agency, see
>> Virkkunen’s
>> paper in http://www.activites.org/v3n1/v3n1.book.pdf#page=43)
>>
>> Best wishes, Antti
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 6:57 PM, <ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org
>> <mailto:ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> forgot to send this to XMCA
>>
>> -----Forwarded by ERIC RAMBERG/spps on 06/06/2013 10:56AM
>> -----
>> To: ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>> From: ERIC RAMBERG/spps
>> Date: 06/06/2013 09:05AM
>>
>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
>>
>> True true, the history of philosophy does lead there Andy.
>> But that leads
>> to my trepidations regarding ideology lacking in practice.
>>
>> What substance within conscious formation is measurable?
>>
>> I believe that answer has yet to be found
>> perhaps?
>>
>> eric
>>
>> -----xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu> wrote: -----
>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
>> <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
>> From: Andy Blunden
>> Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> Date: 06/05/2013 08:42PM
>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
>>
>> Eric,
>> By posiing the problem as that of the Kantian dilemma, of
>> unifying two
>> disparate abstractions, you determine the answer as from
>> the history of
>> philosophy and the answer is Hegel's answer: "a formation of
>> consciousness" or Gestalt des Bewusstsein.
>>
>> Andy
>>
>> ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org <mailto:ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org> wrote:
>>
>> I believe that this discussion needs to involve "unit
>> of analysis" for
>> what it is that provides the mediational method.
>> What unit of study can properly encapsulate that which
>> is being observed?
>> Activity? Concept? Word? Mirror Neuron?
>> Oh my what a great temptest LSV did let out of the teapot
>> eric
>>
>> -----xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu> wrote: -----
>> To: "xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>"
>> <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
>> From: Achilles Delari Junior
>> Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> Date: 06/05/2013 07:04AM
>> Subject: RE: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
>>
>> Sure, Greg,
>> Well, seems to me that "draw analogies between
>> different domains of
>> their worlds" is closer to "meaning construction" than
>> to choice a
>> "stimulus medium" to help memory tasks, for instance.
>> The "double
>> stimulation" is fine because introduces a kind of
>> mediation between a
>> stimulus and our response to the stimulus. But,
>> following Vygotsky's
>> formulations at that time this new series of
>> "stimulus" (a nude, a
>> word, etc) act also as a stimulus, a conditioned one.
>> If you change
>> you paradigm to the proposition that all sign implies
>> any kind of
>> "generalization process" (meaning) that differs in
>> their structure and
>> has a genetic construction (see the studies about
>> concepts, for
>> instance), a sign could not be only a second series of
>> stimuli ruled
>> by the same laws that a conditional reflex... As in
>> "Instrumental
>> method": S-------X-------R. Where the relation
>> S---------R is a direct
>> stimulus response relationship, but when you introduce
>> a second series
>> of stimulus "X" (double stimulation) you have an
>> indirect stimulus
>> response relationship, but the relation between S and
>> X, and X and R
>> remain a conditioned reflex relationship... "Draw
>> analogies between
>> different domains of our worlds" seem to mean that we
>> are in transit
>> between different words of signification, and culture
>> is a human
>> production that involves the "generalization" from a
>> world to another,
>> broader, maybe not exactly more precise, but
>> "broader", in my opinion.
>> I don't know...
>>
>>
>> "In natural memory a direct associative (conditional
>> reflex)
>> connection A?B is established between two stimuli A
>> and B. In
>> artificial, mnemotechnic memory of the same
>> impression, by means of a
>> psychological tool X (a knot in a handkerchief, a
>> mnemonic scheme)
>> instead of the direct connection A?B two new ones are
>> established: A?X
>> and X?B Just like the connection A?B each of them is a
>> natural
>> conditional reflex process, determined, by the
>> properties of the brain
>> tissue. What is new, artificial, and instrumental is
>> the fact of the
>> replacement of one connection A?B by two connections:
>> A?X and X?B They
>> lead to the same result, but by a different path. What
>> is new is the
>> artificial direction which the instrument gives to the
>> natural process
>> of establishing a conditional connection, i.e., the
>> active utilization
>> of the natural properties of brain tissue." Vygotsky
>> "The Instumental
>> Method" (this is 1930)
>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1930/instrumental.htm
>>
>> But already in 1928:
>>
>> "Let us now compare the natural and cultural mnemonics
>> of a child. The
>> relation between the two forms can be graphically
>> expressed by means
>> of a triangle: in case of natural memorization a
>> direct associative or
>> conditional reflexive connection is set up between two
>> points, A and
>> B. In case of mnemotechnical memorization, utilizing
>> some sign,
>> instead of one associative connection AB, the others
>> are set up AX and
>> BX, which bring us to the same result, but in a
>> roundabout way. Each
>> of these connections AX and BX is the same kind of
>> conditional-reflexive process of connection as AB."
>> Vygotsky (1928)
>>
>>
>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1929/cultural_development.htm
>>
>> See: "AX and BX is the same kind of
>> conditional-reflexive process of
>> connection as AB." --> The same kind... This paradigm
>> will not be the
>> same in 1933-34...
>>
>> "(Introduction: the importance of the sign; its social
>> meaning). In
>> older works we ignored that the sign has meaning. <
>> But there is “a
>> time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones
>> together”
>> (Ecclesiastes). > We proceeded from the principle of
>> the constancy of
>> meaning, we discounted meaning. But the problem of
>> meaning was already
>> present in the older investigations. Whereas before
>> our task was to
>> demonstrate what “the knot” and logical memory have in
>> common, now our
>> task is to demonstrate the difference that exists
>> between them.From
>> our works it follows that the sign changes the
>> interfunctional
>> relationships." (Vygotsky, 1933-34)
>>
>>
>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1934/problem-consciousness.htm
>>
>> And now?
>>
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> Achilles.
>>
>>
>> Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2013 18:31:23 -0600
>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
>> From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
>> <mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>
>> Achilles,
>>
>> Sounded interesting, but I'm not sure I followed
>> you completely. You
>>
>> say
>>
>> that Strathern's quote seems like it has a broader
>> application that
>>
>> "double
>>
>> stimulation", but I could use some help with the
>> rest of your message.
>>
>> If you have a few minutes, maybe you could try
>> rephrasing?
>>
>> -greg
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 4:11 PM, Achilles Delari
>> Junior <
>> achilles_delari@hotmail.com
>> <mailto:achilles_delari@hotmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> In my undertanding, this is very broader and
>> more powerful than
>>
>> double
>>
>> stimulation... Double stimulation could be
>> overcoming with another
>>
>> way for
>>
>> think signs than "medium stimulus" - See "The
>> problem of
>>
>> consciousness"
>>
>> (1933-34), for instance. The more important
>> will be not the
>>
>> similarity
>>
>> between a nude and a word, but their
>> difference, "before was
>>
>> forgotten that
>>
>> sign had a meaning" and "now" the meaning must
>> be take in account.
>>
>> Double
>>
>> stimulation, in my understanding, do not
>> resists to this new point
>>
>> of view.
>>
>> Achilles.
>>
>>
>> Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2013 06:19:04 -0600
>> From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
>> <mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>;
>> lchcmike@gmail.com
>> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>;
>>
>> antti.rajala@helsinki.fi <mailto:antti.rajala@helsinki.fi>
>>
>> CC:
>> Subject: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
>>
>> I wonder if this quote by Marilyn
>> Strathern can be productively
>>
>> connected
>>
>> (not necessarily geneaologically, but
>> ideologically) to the
>>
>> notion of
>>
>> "double stimulation" (which I am just now
>> trying to figure out):
>> "Culture consists in the way people draw
>> analogies between
>>
>> different
>>
>> domains of their worlds" (1992: 47).
>>
>> -greg
>>
>> --
>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>> Visiting Assistant Professor
>> Department of Anthropology
>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
>> Brigham Young University
>> Provo, UT 84602
>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
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>>
>> --
>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>> Visiting Assistant Professor
>> Department of Anthropology
>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
>> Brigham Young University
>> Provo, UT 84602
>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
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>> --
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *Andy Blunden*
>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
>> http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden
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>> -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *Andy Blunden*
>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
>> http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden
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> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
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