Re: Fw: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?

[Antti Rajala <ajrajala@gmail.com>]

Thanks Andy for sharing the wikipedia text, and your thoughts about the
issue! The thoughts about unit of analysis were my own interpretation of
the study, and I am not sure if the issue you raised concerns the original
study.

Warm wishes, Antti


On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 9:20 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

> Antti, here is a link to th eWikipedia on "System concept"
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**System<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System>
> Why do Activity Theorists in Engstrom's current of thinking mix up the
> idea of a system concept with a unit of analysis?
>
> Andy
>
>
> Antti Rajala wrote:
>
>> Greg,
>>
>> You asked:
>> ”My question is getting at where we locate "agency". In individuals alone?
>> Or as possibly being distributed among multiple people and perhaps in
>> amanner that isn't recognizable to the individual. But maybe there is
>> aconcept for that that is different from "double stimulation.”
>>
>> I think that double stimulation can be analyzed not only at the individual
>> level but at the collective level as well. Actually, the study of
>> Engeström
>> and Sannino (2013) that I referred to in my earlier email gives a nice
>> example. The study also involves in some respects a similar situation as
>> the one that you described having taken place with the workers in
>> Malaysia.
>>
>> According to my reading, the study describes a change laboratory
>> intervention taking place in a university library. The library as invited
>> researchers to help them find new forms of work with research groups. A
>> first stimulus emerges in the course of the change laboratory
>> intervention,
>> as a member of one of the research groups that the university library is
>> delivering services says that they can find these services in the internet
>> without the help of the library. Thus a problem emerges for the librarians
>> to collectively produce a service that would be genuinely helpful for the
>> research groups.
>>
>> In solving this problem, they organize their collective action with the
>> help of a second stimulus, namely the concept of knotworking (Engeström,
>> Engeström & Vähäaho, 1999) that the researchers have introduced in the
>> beginning of the change laboratory. In particular, a new working group, a
>> knot, is formed that starts to work with the emergent problem of inventing
>> a useful service.
>>
>> What is in my opinion very innovative, Engeström and Sannino also provide
>> an example of this second stimulus, the concept of knotworking, becoming
>> an
>> initial theoretical generalization that is reworked and enriched through a
>> process of ascending from abstract to concrete as the intervention
>> evolves.
>> Specifically, in the end of the intervention, the concept of knotworking
>> gives rise to many concrete, practical applications of the librarians'
>> work
>> at multiple levels of hierarchy.
>>
>> As for the unit of analysis, I think that the unit of analysis in the
>> study
>> is the intersection of several activity systems, the university libarary
>> and the research groups, In terms of agency, one can maybe talk about
>> shared transformative agency in which the subject is not an individual but
>> a collective. (More about shared transformative agency, see Virkkunen’s
>> paper in http://www.activites.org/v3n1/**v3n1.book.pdf#page=43<http://www.activites.org/v3n1/v3n1.book.pdf#page=43>
>> )
>>
>> Best wishes, Antti
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 6:57 PM, <ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> forgot to send this to XMCA
>>>
>>> -----Forwarded by ERIC RAMBERG/spps on 06/06/2013 10:56AM -----
>>> To: ablunden@mira.net
>>> From: ERIC RAMBERG/spps
>>> Date: 06/06/2013 09:05AM
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
>>>
>>> True true, the history of philosophy does lead there Andy.  But that
>>> leads
>>> to my trepidations regarding ideology lacking in practice.
>>>
>>> What substance within conscious formation is measurable?
>>>
>>> I believe that answer has yet to be found
>>> perhaps?
>>>
>>> eric
>>>
>>> -----xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.**edu <xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu> wrote:
>>> -----
>>>  To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>> From: Andy Blunden
>>> Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>>> Date: 06/05/2013 08:42PM
>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
>>>
>>> Eric,
>>> By posiing the problem as that of the Kantian dilemma, of unifying two
>>> disparate abstractions, you determine the answer as from the history of
>>> philosophy and the answer is Hegel's answer: "a formation of
>>> consciousness" or Gestalt des Bewusstsein.
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>> ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> I believe that this discussion needs to involve "unit of analysis" for
>>>> what it is that provides the mediational method.
>>>> What unit of study can properly encapsulate that which is being
>>>> observed?
>>>> Activity? Concept? Word? Mirror Neuron?
>>>> Oh my what a great temptest LSV did let out of the teapot
>>>> eric
>>>>
>>>> -----xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.**edu <xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>wrote: -----
>>>> To: "xmca@weber.ucsd.edu" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>>> From: Achilles Delari Junior
>>>> Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>> Date: 06/05/2013 07:04AM
>>>> Subject: RE: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
>>>>
>>>> Sure, Greg,
>>>> Well, seems to me that "draw analogies between different domains of
>>>> their worlds" is closer to "meaning construction" than to choice a
>>>> "stimulus medium" to help memory tasks, for instance. The "double
>>>> stimulation" is fine because introduces a kind of mediation between a
>>>> stimulus and our response to the stimulus. But, following Vygotsky's
>>>> formulations at that time this new series of "stimulus" (a nude, a
>>>> word, etc) act also as a stimulus, a conditioned one. If you change
>>>> you paradigm to the proposition that all sign implies any kind of
>>>> "generalization process" (meaning) that differs in their structure and
>>>> has a genetic construction (see the studies about concepts, for
>>>> instance), a sign could not be only a second series of stimuli ruled
>>>> by the same laws that a conditional reflex... As in "Instrumental
>>>> method": S-------X-------R. Where the relation S---------R is a direct
>>>> stimulus response relationship, but when you introduce a second series
>>>> of stimulus "X" (double stimulation) you have an indirect stimulus
>>>> response relationship, but the relation between S and X, and X and R
>>>> remain a conditioned reflex relationship... "Draw analogies between
>>>> different domains of our worlds" seem to mean that we are in transit
>>>> between different words of signification, and culture is a human
>>>> production that involves the "generalization" from a world to another,
>>>> broader, maybe not exactly more precise, but "broader", in my opinion.
>>>> I don't know...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "In natural memory a direct associative (conditional reflex)
>>>> connection A?B is established between two stimuli A and B. In
>>>> artificial, mnemotechnic memory of the same impression, by means of a
>>>> psychological tool X (a knot in a handkerchief, a mnemonic scheme)
>>>> instead of the direct connection A?B two new ones are established: A?X
>>>> and X?B Just like the connection A?B each of them is a natural
>>>> conditional reflex process, determined, by the properties of the brain
>>>> tissue. What is new, artificial, and instrumental is the fact of the
>>>> replacement of one connection A?B by two connections: A?X and X?B They
>>>> lead to the same result, but by a different path. What is new is the
>>>> artificial direction which the instrument gives to the natural process
>>>> of establishing a conditional connection, i.e., the active utilization
>>>> of the natural properties of brain tissue." Vygotsky "The Instumental
>>>> Method" (this is 1930)
>>>> http://www.marxists.org/**archive/vygotsky/works/1930/**
>>>> instrumental.htm<http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1930/instrumental.htm>
>>>>
>>>> But already in 1928:
>>>>
>>>> "Let us now compare the natural and cultural mnemonics of a child. The
>>>> relation between the two forms can be graphically expressed by means
>>>> of a triangle: in case of natural memorization a direct associative or
>>>> conditional reflexive connection is set up between two points, A and
>>>> B. In case of mnemotechnical memorization, utilizing some sign,
>>>> instead of one associative connection AB, the others are set up AX and
>>>> BX, which bring us to the same result, but in a roundabout way. Each
>>>> of these connections AX and BX is the same kind of
>>>> conditional-reflexive process of connection as AB." Vygotsky (1928)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> http://www.marxists.org/**archive/vygotsky/works/1929/**
>>> cultural_development.htm<http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1929/cultural_development.htm>
>>>
>>>
>>>> See: "AX and BX is the same kind of conditional-reflexive process of
>>>> connection as AB." --> The same kind... This paradigm will not be the
>>>> same in 1933-34...
>>>>
>>>> "(Introduction: the importance of the sign; its social meaning). In
>>>> older works we ignored that the sign has meaning. < But there is “a
>>>> time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together”
>>>> (Ecclesiastes). > We proceeded from the principle of the constancy of
>>>> meaning, we discounted meaning. But the problem of meaning was already
>>>> present in the older investigations. Whereas before our task was to
>>>> demonstrate what “the knot” and logical memory have in common, now our
>>>> task is to demonstrate the difference that exists between them.From
>>>> our works it follows that the sign changes the interfunctional
>>>> relationships." (Vygotsky, 1933-34)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> http://www.marxists.org/**archive/vygotsky/works/1934/**
>>> problem-consciousness.htm<http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1934/problem-consciousness.htm>
>>>
>>>
>>>> And now?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thank you.
>>>>
>>>> Achilles.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2013 18:31:23 -0600
>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
>>>>> From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
>>>>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>
>>>>> Achilles,
>>>>>
>>>>> Sounded interesting, but I'm not sure I followed you completely. You
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> say
>>>
>>>
>>>> that Strathern's quote seems like it has a broader application that
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> "double
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> stimulation", but I could use some help with the rest of your message.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you have a few minutes, maybe you could try rephrasing?
>>>>>
>>>>> -greg
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 4:11 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
>>>>> achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> In my undertanding, this is very broader and more powerful than
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> double
>>>
>>>
>>>> stimulation... Double stimulation could be overcoming with another
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> way for
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> think signs than "medium stimulus" - See "The problem of
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> consciousness"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> (1933-34), for instance. The more important will be not the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> similarity
>>>
>>>
>>>> between a nude and a word, but their difference, "before was
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> forgotten that
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> sign had a meaning" and "now" the meaning must be take in account.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Double
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> stimulation, in my understanding, do not resists to this new point
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> of view.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Achilles.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2013 06:19:04 -0600
>>>>>>> From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
>>>>>>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu; lchcmike@gmail.com;
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> antti.rajala@helsinki.fi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> CC:
>>>>>>> Subject: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wonder if this quote by Marilyn Strathern can be productively
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> connected
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> (not necessarily geneaologically, but ideologically) to the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> notion of
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> "double stimulation" (which I am just now trying to figure out):
>>>>>>> "Culture consists in the way people draw analogies between
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> different
>>>
>>>
>>>> domains of their worlds" (1992: 47).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -greg
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>>>>>>> Visiting Assistant Professor
>>>>>>> Department of Anthropology
>>>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
>>>>>>> Brigham Young University
>>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602
>>>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/**GregoryThompson<http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson>
>>>>>>> ______________________________**____________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>>>>> Visiting Assistant Professor
>>>>> Department of Anthropology
>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
>>>>> Brigham Young University
>>>>> Provo, UT 84602
>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/**GregoryThompson<http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson>
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>>> --
>>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
>>> ------------
>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
>>> http://marxists.academia.edu/**AndyBlunden<http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden>
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>
> --
> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
> ------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
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