Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?

[Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>]

Yes Larry, I was thinking of Jussi's article as well and wondering guessing
that the double stimulation work fits into Vygotsky's earlier career.

And it seems we are in close agreement with regard to extending "agency"
beyond individuals (not sure if this goes against the very definition, but
it seems not far from Latour's suggestion that objects have agency).

And countering poly- views of agency with a "monastic" (an individual
separated from society) view of agency seems to work just as well - perhaps
better!

-greg


On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 7:06 AM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:

> Greg,
> Your phrase
> *which in a sense chooses them*
>
> This *qualia* or process of  *being chosen* is an interpreted as a *type*
> or *kind* of mediation.
> Now this seems to be an expansion of the concept *mediation* to explain the
> *forces* or energies which *possess* not just *I* but *possess US*.
> I would like to put this into context with Jussi's paper where he
> articulated three *types* or *kinds* of mediation [tools, signs, and social
> interaction]
>
> Greg, my question, generated by reading jussi and your reflections on
> *mediation* is to ask what all these multiple or poly versions of the
> expanded concept of *mediation* have in *general* which can be abstracted
> theoretically?
> Or is it more useful and practical to stay at the level of *experience*
> where mediation is poly or multiple and not monastic?
> For example [examples as poly or multi] 1] picking up or putting down a
> tool [instrumental]  2] signs as socio-genetic meaning INTERPRETATION, 3]
> social interaction which is showing and gesture and may not express verbal
> interaction but is communication, and 4]becoming chosen by some force or
> energy or process existing as qualia?
>
> Greg, can all these multiple and poly examples be sharing a common qualia?
> The qualia of being possessed by some ??? that is not-self?
> The experiments with deaf, blind, and mute children used a unit of analysis
> of *self-care* which included being possessed by some qualia of not-self.
> In this PARTICULAR instance I read *mediation* as fundamentally *social
> interaction* which emphasizes showing and demonstration that is being
> possessed by some qualia of not-self which is *other* or *alterity*.
>
> This brings in your question of culture as analogy or metaphor or the pivot
> and hinge BETWEEN identity and not-identity [what is other than identity]
>
> I apologize for my stream of consciousness or possibly chaining. The
> central question of monistic or poly/multi interpretations [including
> questions of mediation or medial BETWEENESS as qualia or possession] moves
> into the realm of *medial voice* which is neither active or passive,
> neither doer or done to, but moving into the concept of play as archetypal
> possession which posits a medial *space* of possession.
>
>
> I will pause, but your question of *agency* [that which *acts*] circling
> and turning around notions of voluntary *free acts* in a *positivist*
> version of self as contained identity, and the tension with notions of
> mediation as possession [a qualia of being participants in play] is the way
> I *read* and *interpreted* your reflections [a double movement] of the
> topic of agency as the qualia of being moved [e-motion] AS an emergent
> mediational qualia.
>
> Christine, I interpret your questions to this chat community as asking
> similar questions.
>
> Larry
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 8:49 PM, Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > Antti and Achilles,
> > Thanks for this. I have a pretty poor understanding of "double
> > stimulation", so your suggestions are very helpful.
> >
> > I think I'm seeing the difference between the Strathern quote and double
> > stimulation. Let me see if I can push my point a bit further because
> what I
> > am trying to understand is close to Eric's question about unit of
> analysis.
> > Here I am thinking in terms of individual vs. group level mediation.
> >
> > Achilles, as you describe it, it seems like double stimulation is
> primarily
> > concerned with individual agency. In the description you give (and
> perhaps
> > Engestrom as well?), mediation happens between a stimulus and a response
> > and puts distance (X) between the stimulus and the response such that the
> > individual can act in an agentic fashion. This is agency at the level of
> > the individual.
> >
> > So what I'm wondering is if it makes any sense to think about double
> > stimulation (and agency) at the level of the group.
> >
> > As an example, I recently came across work done by Aihwa Ong with factory
> > workers in Malaysia. She describes how when factory workers were faced
> with
> > a sort of dilemma of being over-worked or quitting their jobs, they would
> > become possessed by spirits and thus unable to work. Here is a mediator
> at
> > the level of culture that appears to be doing important work of solving a
> > dilemma (like Buridan's ass, only here the workers are faced with two bad
> > choices and they come up with a third and better choice which, in a
> sense,
> > chooses them). [And lets just assume that these factory workers aren't
> > "just pretending" but are really experiencing being possessed]. Does that
> > count as double stimulation? or is the concept more circumscribed (and
> > individualistic) than this?
> >
> > My question is getting at where we locate "agency". In individuals alone?
> > Or as possibly being distributed among multiple people and perhaps in a
> > manner that isn't recognizable to the individual. But maybe there is a
> > concept for that that is different from "double stimulation."
> >
> > Anyway, thanks again for these thoughtful and detailed responses. I do
> > appreciate you bearing with my limited understanding of these matters...
> >
> > Very best,
> > greg
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 6:03 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Sure, Greg,
> > > Well, seems to me that "draw analogies between different domains of
> their
> > > worlds" is closer to "meaning construction" than to choice a "stimulus
> > > medium" to help memory tasks, for instance. The "double stimulation" is
> > > fine because introduces a kind of mediation between a stimulus and our
> > > response to the stimulus. But, following Vygotsky's formulations at
> that
> > > time this new series of "stimulus" (a nude, a word, etc) act also as a
> > > stimulus, a conditioned one. If you change you paradigm to the
> > proposition
> > > that all sign implies any kind of "generalization process" (meaning)
> that
> > > differs in their structure and has a genetic construction (see the
> > studies
> > > about concepts, for instance), a sign could not be only a second series
> > of
> > > stimuli ruled by the same laws that a conditional reflex... As in
> > > "Instrumental method": S-------X-------R. Where the relation
> S---------R
> > is
> > > a direct stimulus response relationship, but when you introduce a
> second
> > > series of stimulus "X" (double stimulation) you have an indirect
> stimulus
> > > response relationship, but the relation between S and X, and X and R
> > remain
> > > a conditioned reflex relationship... "Draw analogies between different
> > > domains of our worlds" seem to mean that we are in transit between
> > > different words of signification, and culture is a human production
> that
> > > involves the "generalization" from a world to another, broader, maybe
> not
> > > exactly more precise, but "broader", in my opinion. I don't know...
> > >
> > >
> > > "In natural memory a direct associative (conditional reflex) connection
> > > A→B is established between two stimuli A and B. In artificial,
> > mnemotechnic
> > > memory of the same impression, by means of a psychological tool X (a
> knot
> > > in a handkerchief, a mnemonic scheme) instead of the direct connection
> > A→B
> > > two new ones are established: A→X and X→B Just like the connection A→B
> > each
> > > of them is a natural conditional reflex process, determined, by the
> > > properties of the brain tissue. What is new, artificial, and
> instrumental
> > > is the fact of the replacement of one connection A→B by two
> connections:
> > > A→X and X→B They lead to the same result, but by a different path. What
> > is
> > > new is the artificial direction which the instrument gives to the
> natural
> > > process of establishing a conditional connection, i.e., the active
> > > utilization of the natural properties of brain tissue." Vygotsky "The
> > > Instumental Method" (this is 1930)
> > > http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1930/instrumental.htm
> > >
> > > But already in 1928:
> > >
> > > "Let us now compare the natural and cultural mnemonics of a child. The
> > > relation between the two forms can be graphically expressed by means
> of a
> > > triangle: in case of natural memorization a direct associative or
> > > conditional reflexive connection is set up between two points, A and B.
> > In
> > > case of mnemotechnical memorization, utilizing some sign, instead of
> one
> > > associative connection AB, the others are set up AX and BX, which bring
> > us
> > > to the same result, but in a roundabout way. Each of these connections
> AX
> > > and BX is the same kind of conditional-reflexive process of connection
> as
> > > AB." Vygotsky (1928)
> > >
> >
> http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1929/cultural_development.htm
> > >
> > >
> > > See: "AX and BX is the same kind of conditional-reflexive process of
> > > connection as AB." --> The same kind... This paradigm will not be the
> > same
> > > in 1933-34...
> > >
> > > "(Introduction: the importance of the sign; its social meaning). In
> older
> > > works we ignored that the sign has meaning. < But there is “a time to
> > cast
> > > away stones, and a time to gather stones together” (Ecclesiastes). > We
> > > proceeded from the principle of the constancy of meaning, we discounted
> > > meaning. But the problem of meaning was already present in the older
> > > investigations. Whereas before our task was to demonstrate what “the
> > knot”
> > > and logical memory have in common, now our task is to demonstrate the
> > > difference that exists between them.From our works it follows that the
> > sign
> > > changes the interfunctional relationships." (Vygotsky, 1933-34)
> > >
> >
> http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1934/problem-consciousness.htm
> > >
> > >
> > > And now?
> > >
> > >
> > > Thank you.
> > >
> > > Achilles.
> > >
> > > > Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2013 18:31:23 -0600
> > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
> > > > From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
> > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > >
> > > > Achilles,
> > > >
> > > > Sounded interesting, but I'm not sure I followed you completely. You
> > say
> > > > that Strathern's quote seems like it has a broader application that
> > > "double
> > > > stimulation", but I could use some help with the rest of your
> message.
> > > >
> > > > If you have a few minutes, maybe you could try rephrasing?
> > > >
> > > > -greg
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 4:11 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > In my undertanding, this is very broader and more powerful than
> > double
> > > > > stimulation... Double stimulation could be overcoming with another
> > way
> > > for
> > > > > think signs than "medium stimulus" - See "The problem of
> > consciousness"
> > > > > (1933-34), for instance. The more important will be not the
> > similarity
> > > > > between a nude and a word, but their difference, "before was
> > forgotten
> > > that
> > > > > sign had a meaning" and "now" the meaning must be take in account.
> > > Double
> > > > > stimulation, in my understanding, do not resists to this new point
> of
> > > view.
> > > > >
> > > > > Achilles.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2013 06:19:04 -0600
> > > > > > From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
> > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu; lchcmike@gmail.com;
> > > antti.rajala@helsinki.fi
> > > > > > CC:
> > > > > > Subject: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I wonder if this quote by Marilyn Strathern can be productively
> > > connected
> > > > > > (not necessarily geneaologically, but ideologically) to the
> notion
> > of
> > > > > > "double stimulation" (which I am just now trying to figure out):
> > > > > > "Culture consists in the way people draw analogies between
> > different
> > > > > > domains of their worlds" (1992: 47).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -greg
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > > > > > Visiting Assistant Professor
> > > > > > Department of Anthropology
> > > > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> > > > > > Brigham Young University
> > > > > > Provo, UT 84602
> > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
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> > > >
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> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > > > Visiting Assistant Professor
> > > > Department of Anthropology
> > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> > > > Brigham Young University
> > > > Provo, UT 84602
> > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
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> >
> >
> > --
> > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > Visiting Assistant Professor
> > Department of Anthropology
> > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> > Brigham Young University
> > Provo, UT 84602
> > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> > __________________________________________
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-- 
Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
Visiting Assistant Professor
Department of Anthropology
883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
Brigham Young University
Provo, UT 84602
http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
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