I believe that this discussion needs to involve "unit of analysis" for what it is that provides the mediational method.
What unit of study can properly encapsulate that which is being observed?
Activity? Concept? Word? Mirror Neuron?
Oh my what a great temptest LSV did let out of the teapot
eric
-----xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu wrote: -----
To: "xmca@weber.ucsd.edu" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
From: Achilles Delari Junior
Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
Date: 06/05/2013 07:04AM
Subject: RE: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
Sure, Greg,
Well, seems to me that "draw analogies between different domains of their worlds" is closer to "meaning construction" than to choice a "stimulus medium" to help memory tasks, for instance. The "double stimulation" is fine because introduces a kind of mediation between a stimulus and our response to the stimulus. But, following Vygotsky's formulations at that time this new series of "stimulus" (a nude, a word, etc) act also as a stimulus, a conditioned one. If you change you paradigm to the proposition that all sign implies any kind of "generalization process" (meaning) that differs in their structure and has a genetic construction (see the studies about concepts, for instance), a sign could not be only a second series of stimuli ruled by the same laws that a conditional reflex... As in "Instrumental method": S-------X-------R. Where the relation S---------R is a direct stimulus response relationship, but when you introduce a second series of stimulus "X" (double stimulation) you have an indirect stimulus response relationship, but the relation between S and X, and X and R remain a conditioned reflex relationship... "Draw analogies between different domains of our worlds" seem to mean that we are in transit between different words of signification, and culture is a human production that involves the "generalization" from a world to another, broader, maybe not exactly more precise, but "broader", in my opinion. I don't know...
"In natural memory a direct associative (conditional reflex) connection A→B is established between two stimuli A and B. In artificial, mnemotechnic memory of the same impression, by means of a psychological tool X (a knot in a handkerchief, a mnemonic scheme) instead of the direct connection A→B two new ones are established: A→X and X→B Just like the connection A→B each of them is a natural conditional reflex process, determined, by the properties of the brain tissue. What is new, artificial, and instrumental is the fact of the replacement of one connection A→B by two connections: A→X and X→B They lead to the same result, but by a different path. What is new is the artificial direction which the instrument gives to the natural process of establishing a conditional connection, i.e., the active utilization of the natural properties of brain tissue." Vygotsky "The Instumental Method" (this is 1930) http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1930/instrumental.htm
But already in 1928:
"Let us now compare the natural and cultural mnemonics of a child. The relation between the two forms can be graphically expressed by means of a triangle: in case of natural memorization a direct associative or conditional reflexive connection is set up between two points, A and B. In case of mnemotechnical memorization, utilizing some sign, instead of one associative connection AB, the others are set up AX and BX, which bring us to the same result, but in a roundabout way. Each of these connections AX and BX is the same kind of conditional-reflexive process of connection as AB." Vygotsky (1928) http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1929/cultural_development.htm
See: "AX and BX is the same kind of conditional-reflexive process of connection as AB." --> The same kind... This paradigm will not be the same in 1933-34...
"(Introduction: the importance of the sign; its social meaning). In older works we ignored that the sign has meaning. < But there is “a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together” (Ecclesiastes). > We proceeded from the principle of the constancy of meaning, we discounted meaning. But the problem of meaning was already present in the older investigations. Whereas before our task was to demonstrate what “the knot” and logical memory have in common, now our task is to demonstrate the difference that exists between them.From our works it follows that the sign changes the interfunctional relationships." (Vygotsky, 1933-34) http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1934/problem-consciousness.htm
And now?
Thank you.
Achilles.
> Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2013 18:31:23 -0600
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
> From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>
> Achilles,
>
> Sounded interesting, but I'm not sure I followed you completely. You say
> that Strathern's quote seems like it has a broader application that "double
> stimulation", but I could use some help with the rest of your message.
>
> If you have a few minutes, maybe you could try rephrasing?
>
> -greg
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 4:11 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > In my undertanding, this is very broader and more powerful than double
> > stimulation... Double stimulation could be overcoming with another way for
> > think signs than "medium stimulus" - See "The problem of consciousness"
> > (1933-34), for instance. The more important will be not the similarity
> > between a nude and a word, but their difference, "before was forgotten that
> > sign had a meaning" and "now" the meaning must be take in account. Double
> > stimulation, in my understanding, do not resists to this new point of view.
> >
> > Achilles.
> >
> > > Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2013 06:19:04 -0600
> > > From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
> > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu; lchcmike@gmail.com; antti.rajala@helsinki.fi
> > > CC:
> > > Subject: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
> > >
> > > I wonder if this quote by Marilyn Strathern can be productively connected
> > > (not necessarily geneaologically, but ideologically) to the notion of
> > > "double stimulation" (which I am just now trying to figure out):
> > > "Culture consists in the way people draw analogies between different
> > > domains of their worlds" (1992: 47).
> > >
> > > -greg
> > >
> > > --
> > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > > Visiting Assistant Professor
> > > Department of Anthropology
> > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> > > Brigham Young University
> > > Provo, UT 84602
> > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
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>
>
> --
> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> Visiting Assistant Professor
> Department of Anthropology
> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> Brigham Young University
> Provo, UT 84602
> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
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