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Re: [xmca] Operations
- To: ablunden@mira.net, "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
- Subject: Re: [xmca] Operations
- From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
- Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 21:49:04 -0700
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As you move through the text, each terms seems sometimes to be used in a
technical fashion within a theoretical framework, while at other times they
are used in common sense terms. My interpretation.
let others comment if they care to.
mike
On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 9:31 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
> Where do you see this, Mike, the wobbliness of "acivity" and "operation"?
> Remember that for ANL, "activity" is inclusive of all units of activity,
> molar, meso and micro. So he will be talking about "activity" long before
> creatures get to participate in "activities."
>
> Andy
>
> mike cole wrote:
>
>> That is a fascinating text, Andy. but both the terms activity and
>> operation appear to wobble in their usages/meaning over the course of the
>> text. Its a really interesting question. In in beginning was the dead as an
>> underlying assumption that carries a lot with it!
>> mike
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 9:02 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:
>> lchcmike@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> That's great Andy. thanks.
>> Is this what you were referring to, Manfred?
>> mike
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 8:56 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Mike, I attach pp 154-180 from A N Leontyev's "Development of
>> Mind" where he introduces the concept of "operation" as part
>> of a "second stage of evolution of the psyche".
>>
>> Full text at http://www.erythrospress.com/**store/leontyev.html<http://www.erythrospress.com/store/leontyev.html>
>>
>> Andy
>>
>> mike cole wrote:
>>
>> Yes, thanks Andy: OPERATIONS are something like automated
>> actions, subject to conditions not goals.
>> mike
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 8:39 PM, Andy Blunden
>> <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>> wrote:
>>
>> "operations", you mean.
>> a
>> mike cole wrote:
>>
>> What is your understanding of this issue, Manfred.
>> In the text
>> most used by Americans, *actions*
>> are something like automated actions, subject to
>> condions not
>> goals. Components of actions.
>>
>> What does it mean, ontogenetically, for operations
>> to preceed
>> actions? How does this relate to the classic
>> Leontiev formulation?
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 6:28 PM, Andy Blunden
>> <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>> wrote:
>>
>> Michael, here is what Manfred said in his message:
>>
>> "A young infant has not already established a
>> goal-driven level of
>> actions. In the first weeks one can observe the
>> acquisition of
>> first
>> operations and of first expectations what
>> should
>> happen. But these
>> expectations are not yet represented as a
>> mental image
>> about the
>> desired future states. This is the product
>> of the
>> acquisition of a
>> sign system which enables the person to
>> evoke and
>> imagine a future
>> state in the here and now and to start to
>> strive for
>> it. And for
>> this starting point, not only to imagine
>> different
>> future states,
>> but also to select one of them and to start
>> to strive
>> for it,
>> emotional processes come into play that
>> color one of
>> the imagined
>> future state e.g. in a state worth striving
>> for and
>> that mobilize
>> the executive power to start striving for
>> it. However,
>> the ability
>> to form such notions of goals and to
>> transform them
>> into actions is
>> not something that occurs automatically. It
>> emerges in
>> a long-drawn
>> ontogenetic learning process in which the
>> attainment of
>> goals
>> through actions is tried, tested, and
>> increasingly
>> optimized."
>> I make no claim to be a psychologist, Michael,
>> but it always
>> seemed to me that ascribing a knowledge of the
>> world to
>> neonates
>> would be a hard position to sustain. We have
>> to find some
>> other
>> way of understanding the behaviour of neonates
>> and infants
>> other
>> than presuming that they form a goal and then
>> take appropriate
>> premeditated action to realise that goal.
>>
>> An "operation" is a form of behaviour which
>> has the
>> potential to
>> be transformed into an action, that is, for
>> the subject to
>> become
>> consciously aware of the behaviour and subject
>> it to conscious
>> control. So at first I think we have to say
>> that the neonate
>> smiles, moves its hands around, pouts,
>> squeezes, etc, etc.,
>> without first forming the idea "I think I will
>> smile at this
>> woman, and she might give me some more food"
>> or any such
>> thing.
>> But after the relevant stimuli have been
>> repeatedly
>> accompanied by
>> the various kinds of responses which adult
>> carers provide
>> to the
>> child and the successful satisfaction of the
>> stimuli, the
>> child
>> might begin to associate the behaviour with an
>> object,
>> accomodate
>> its behaviour to the social world around them,
>> and what
>> began as
>> an operation may be transformed into an
>> action. Otherwise,
>> I think
>> we are imply a hell of a lot about innate
>> knowledge!
>>
>> Andy
>>
>> Glassman, Michael wrote:
>>
>> .... But I also I think disagree with Andy
>> to some
>> extent. Do
>> infants simply engage in operations? Is that
>> possible? Isn't
>> there an action tied to every operation,
>> or else why
>> is the
>> infant doing it. I think infants
>> definitely do react to
>> stimuli (feedback I think can be define
>> through
>> information
>> processing but it can also perhaps be
>> defined through
>> social
>> cognitive theory which is more behavior
>> oriented).
>> But when
>> they react don't they have an aim of some
>> type? It
>> might be
>> very rudimentary but it is an aim and the
>> child is
>> developing
>> operations to meet those aims (it also
>> seems to me
>> that there
>> are much fuzzier boundaries between
>> operations and
>> actions at
>> this point).
>>
>>
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>> -- ------------------------------**
>> ------------------------------**------------
>> *Andy Blunden*
>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/**>
>> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/**>
>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
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>>
>>
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>> -- ------------------------------**
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>> *Andy Blunden*
>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/**>
>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
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> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
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> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
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