Re: [xmca] Operations

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

That's great Andy. thanks.
Is this what you were referring to, Manfred?
mike

On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 8:56 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

> Mike, I attach pp 154-180 from A N Leontyev's "Development of Mind" where
> he introduces the concept of "operation" as part of a "second stage of
> evolution of the psyche".
>
> Full text at http://www.erythrospress.com/**store/leontyev.html<http://www.erythrospress.com/store/leontyev.html>
>
> Andy
>
> mike cole wrote:
>
>> Yes, thanks Andy: OPERATIONS are something like automated actions,
>> subject to conditions not goals.
>> mike
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 8:39 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:
>> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>>
>>     "operations", you mean.
>>     a
>>     mike cole wrote:
>>
>>         What is your understanding of this issue, Manfred. In the text
>>         most used by Americans, *actions*
>>         are something like automated actions, subject to condions not
>>         goals. Components of actions.
>>
>>         What does it mean, ontogenetically, for operations to preceed
>>         actions? How does this relate to the classic Leontiev formulation?
>>
>>         Mike
>>
>>         On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 6:28 PM, Andy Blunden
>>         <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>>         <mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>> wrote:
>>
>>             Michael, here is what Manfred said in his message:
>>
>>                "A young infant has not already established a
>>         goal-driven level of
>>                actions. In the first weeks one can observe the
>>         acquisition of
>>             first
>>                operations and of first expectations what should
>>         happen. But these
>>                expectations are not yet represented as a mental image
>>         about the
>>                desired future states. This is the product of the
>>         acquisition of a
>>                sign system which enables the person to evoke and
>>          imagine a future
>>                state in the here and now and to start to strive for
>>         it. And for
>>                this starting point, not only to imagine different
>>         future states,
>>                but also to select one of them and to start to strive
>>         for it,
>>                emotional processes come into play that color one of
>>         the imagined
>>                future state e.g. in a state worth striving for and
>>         that mobilize
>>                the executive power to start striving for it. However,
>>         the ability
>>                to form such notions of goals and to transform them
>>         into actions is
>>                not something that occurs automatically. It emerges in
>>         a long-drawn
>>                ontogenetic learning process in which the attainment of
>>         goals
>>                through actions is tried, tested, and increasingly
>>         optimized."
>>             I make no claim to be a psychologist, Michael, but it always
>>             seemed to me that ascribing a knowledge of the world to
>>         neonates
>>             would be a hard position to sustain. We have to find some
>>         other
>>             way of understanding the behaviour of neonates and infants
>>         other
>>             than presuming that they form a goal and then take appropriate
>>             premeditated action to realise that goal.
>>
>>             An "operation" is a form of behaviour which has the
>>         potential to
>>             be transformed into an action, that is, for the subject to
>>         become
>>             consciously aware of the behaviour and subject it to conscious
>>             control. So at first I think we have to say that the neonate
>>             smiles, moves its hands around, pouts, squeezes, etc, etc.,
>>             without first forming the idea "I think I will smile at this
>>             woman, and she might give me some more food" or any such
>>         thing.
>>             But after the relevant stimuli have been repeatedly
>>         accompanied by
>>             the various kinds of responses which adult carers provide
>>         to the
>>             child and the successful satisfaction of the stimuli, the
>>         child
>>             might begin to associate the behaviour with an object,
>>         accomodate
>>             its behaviour to the social world around them, and what
>>         began as
>>             an operation may be transformed into an action. Otherwise,
>>         I think
>>             we are imply a hell of a lot about innate knowledge!
>>
>>             Andy
>>
>>             Glassman, Michael wrote:
>>
>>                 .... But I also I think disagree with Andy to some
>>         extent.  Do
>>                 infants simply engage in operations?  Is that
>>         possible? Isn't
>>                 there an action tied to every operation, or else why
>>         is the
>>                 infant doing it.  I think infants definitely do react to
>>                 stimuli (feedback I think can be define through
>>         information
>>                 processing but it can also perhaps be defined through
>>         social
>>                 cognitive theory which is more behavior oriented).
>>          But when
>>                 they react don't they have an aim of some type?  It
>>         might be
>>                 very rudimentary but it is an aim and the child is
>>         developing
>>                 operations to meet those aims (it also seems to me
>>         that there
>>                 are much fuzzier boundaries between operations and
>>         actions at
>>                 this point).
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>     --     ------------------------------**------------------------------
>> **------------
>>     *Andy Blunden*
>>     Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/
>> **>
>>     Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
>>     http://marxists.academia.edu/**AndyBlunden<http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden>
>>
>>
>>
> --
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