[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]
Re: [xmca] Polls are closed: Manfred Holodynsk's article is choice
Larry,
Right - and then 2nd and 3rd person feed back to transform 1st person. Right?
Martin
On Mar 17, 2013, at 1:33 PM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
> Michael, robert
> Not to get off focus but the assumption of mirror neurons is that the
> *same* neurons that fire when I pick up a glass of water are firing in the
> person perceiving my action.
> It is the notion of *identity* that is being assumed to be relevant to the
> research on mirror neurons.
> This *fact* is then used to justify a 2nd person frame of understanding as
> an emerging inter-subjective framework.
> Whether this assumption of the primacy of intersubjectivity as 2nd person
> frames is *justified* can be argued from multiple perspectives, but mirror
> neurons are used as a justification for the primacy of this 2nd person
> interpretation.
>
> The notion of *expressive signs* AS *gestures* can also be used to support
> an assumption of the primacy of 2nd person frames.
> What is being mediated is the way gestures are *responded* to. Expressive
> signs as 2nd person understanding and expressive symbols as 3rd person
> frames as developing FROM 2nd person expressive signs is one way to *read*
> the function of expressive signs AND symbols.
>
> Our recent discussion of Dewey's notion of *experience* also can be brought
> into this conversation.
> Larry
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 9:14 AM, Glassman, Michael <glassman.13@osu.edu>wrote:
>
>> Hi Robert,
>>
>> I know we're not supposed to say this about brain researchers but it seems
>> Ramachadran makes an extraordinary leap. What do we actually know. When
>> we see somebody engage in an action neurons in our brain fire. This makes
>> an extraordinary amount of sense. We have known this for a while I think
>> and it is the logical extension of vicarious learning. But then he takes
>> this one fact and spins this story out of it about the entire development
>> of culture. It may be true, but I think we have no idea.
>>
>> I would bet you a million dollars that when I do something with my dog
>> laying on the ground in front of me a percentage of neurons in his brain
>> fires as well. But he doesn't mirror my action, he reacts to it incredibly
>> quickly (more quickly than most humans). What do we call these neurons.
>> Or to take the specific example, we watch somebody being touched and the
>> mirror neurons in our brain react to that so we put ourselves in the place
>> of that person. But if somebody came up to me and touched me my dog would
>> react much more specifically based on the type of touch (come over the join
>> in the play or growl at the aggression). Again I bet the house that
>> neurons are firing in my dog's brain, but would we call them mirror neurons?
>>
>> Again, I'm not saying what Ramachadran is wrong, simply that when you get
>> past the immediate empirical evidence most of it is a story he is spinning
>> out from it.
>>
>> Michael
>> ________________________________________
>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] on behalf
>> of Robert Lake [boblake@georgiasouthern.edu]
>> Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 11:34 AM
>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Polls are closed: Manfred Holodynsk's article is choice
>>
>> Andy,
>> Have you ever smiled at a baby and had them smile back?
>> There is nothing metaphysical about that :-).
>> Did you watch the TED talk?
>> RL
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 10:17 AM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com
>>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 17 March 2013 12:15, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Robert, if I were to suggest that "mirror neurons" are a metaphyical
>>>> belief which have no more basis in existence than phlogiston or ether,
>>>> would that actually change anything? Have you ever been misled by the
>>>> mistaken observation of "mirror neuron" activity, or has observation
>> of a
>>>> mirror neuron ever explained some otherwise inexplicable event? So far
>>> as I
>>>> know, leaving aside surgical intervention, neurons only react to other
>>>> neurons by direct electrochemical interaction.
>>>> Andy
>>>>
>>>>
>>> There's theoretical room for the rest of the electromagnetic spectrum,
>> e.g.
>>> optics. I think Robert is referring to the whites of the eyes
>> phenomena
>>> observed in monkey(?) brain scans.
>>>
>>> In this sense its ontological status is that one can draw a dotted line
>>> around a scan image etc and name it.
>>>
>>> As far as the autism line of reasoning goes, I guess its akin to the
>>> phenomena of blindness in children who have (unfortunately) have had a
>>> patch over their eye during particular neurological developments whereby
>>> they are later unable to see out of what looks like a perfectly
>> functioning
>>> eye.
>>>
>>> I will leave it to Robert to speculate on the social genesis of its
>>> systemic relevance...
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Huw
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Robert Lake wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>> I am a relative newcomer to CHAT research, so this (mostly rhetorical)
>>>>> question is probably
>>>>> old hat to many of you. It concerns Holodynski's article as it may or
>>> may
>>>>> not relate to the notion of mirror neurons as described by
>> Ramachandran.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.ted.com/talks/vs_**ramachandran_the_neurons_that_**
>>>>> shaped_civilization.html<
>>>
>> http://www.ted.com/talks/vs_ramachandran_the_neurons_that_shaped_civilization.html
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If I understand this correctly, in Holodynski's view, a caregiver
>>> mirrors
>>>>> back to the child, his or her own emotions through gesture and facial
>>>>> expressions. What if the child's emotions/expressions fall into the
>>> range
>>>>> of autism spectrum disorders? Can ZPD's be created that in turn help
>>> create
>>>>> and develop "empathy" neurons in us regardless of our age level? Are
>>> there
>>>>> some cultures that are more emotionally and perhaps empathically
>>> evolved?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank-you MCA team and Professor Holodynski for this article. I think
>>> it
>>>>> represents the a key component for the future of cultural/historical
>>>>> research.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fascinated and curious,
>>>>> Robert Lake
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 10:59 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>>> <mailto:
>>>>> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The article for discussion is now available at:
>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/**Journal/pdfs/20-1-holodynski.**pdf<
>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Journal/pdfs/20-1-holodynski.pdf>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Andy
>>>>>
>>>>> mike cole wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> We will make available Manfred Holodynski's article - The
>>>>> Internalization
>>>>> Theory of Emotions: A Cultural Historical Approach to the
>>>>> Development of Emotions - available
>>>>> for discussion as soon as possible. Then let the discussion
>>> begin!
>>>>>
>>>>> mike
>>>>> ______________________________**____________
>>>>> _____
>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<
>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>> ------------------------------**------------------------------
>>>>> **------------
>>>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>>>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <
>>> http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/
>>>>> **>
>>>>>
>>>>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
>>>>> http://marxists.academia.edu/**AndyBlunden<
>>> http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden>
>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________**____________
>>>>> _____
>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<
>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> *Robert Lake Ed.D.
>>>>> *Associate Professor
>>>>> Social Foundations of Education
>>>>> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
>>>>> Georgia Southern University
>>>>> P. O. Box 8144
>>>>> Phone: (912) 478-0355
>>>>> Fax: (912) 478-5382
>>>>> Statesboro, GA 30460
>>>>>
>>>>> /Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and education is
>> its
>>>>> midwife./
>>>>> /-/John Dewey.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
>>>> ------------
>>>>
>>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>>>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
>>>> http://marxists.academia.edu/**AndyBlunden<
>>> http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________**____________
>>>> _____
>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<
>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>
>>> __________________________________________
>>> _____
>>> xmca mailing list
>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *Robert Lake Ed.D.
>> *Associate Professor
>> Social Foundations of Education
>> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
>> Georgia Southern University
>> P. O. Box 8144
>> Phone: (912) 478-0355
>> Fax: (912) 478-5382
>> Statesboro, GA 30460
>>
>> *Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and education is its
>> midwife.*
>> *-*John Dewey.
>> __________________________________________
>> _____
>> xmca mailing list
>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>
>>
>> __________________________________________
>> _____
>> xmca mailing list
>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>
> __________________________________________
> _____
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
__________________________________________
_____
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca