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These files are maintained strictly for historical reference, research, and recordkeeping purposes, and the content has not been altered or updated since archiving. Content on this site may not meet current digital accessibility standards. If you require an alternative, accessible format of any information found on this site, please contact Bruce Jones, bjones@ucsd.edu to request an accommodation.
Michael, robert Not to get off focus but the assumption of mirror neurons is that the *same* neurons that fire when I pick up a glass of water are firing in the person perceiving my action. It is the notion of *identity* that is being assumed to be relevant to the research on mirror neurons. This *fact* is then used to justify a 2nd person frame of understanding as an emerging inter-subjective framework. Whether this assumption of the primacy of intersubjectivity as 2nd person frames is *justified* can be argued from multiple perspectives, but mirror neurons are used as a justification for the primacy of this 2nd person interpretation. The notion of *expressive signs* AS *gestures* can also be used to support an assumption of the primacy of 2nd person frames. What is being mediated is the way gestures are *responded* to. Expressive signs as 2nd person understanding and expressive symbols as 3rd person frames as developing FROM 2nd person expressive signs is one way to *read* the function of expressive signs AND symbols. Our recent discussion of Dewey's notion of *experience* also can be brought into this conversation. Larry On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 9:14 AM, Glassman, Michael <glassman.13@osu.edu>wrote: > Hi Robert, > > I know we're not supposed to say this about brain researchers but it seems > Ramachadran makes an extraordinary leap. What do we actually know. When > we see somebody engage in an action neurons in our brain fire. This makes > an extraordinary amount of sense. We have known this for a while I think > and it is the logical extension of vicarious learning. But then he takes > this one fact and spins this story out of it about the entire development > of culture. It may be true, but I think we have no idea. > > I would bet you a million dollars that when I do something with my dog > laying on the ground in front of me a percentage of neurons in his brain > fires as well. But he doesn't mirror my action, he reacts to it incredibly > quickly (more quickly than most humans). What do we call these neurons. > Or to take the specific example, we watch somebody being touched and the > mirror neurons in our brain react to that so we put ourselves in the place > of that person. But if somebody came up to me and touched me my dog would > react much more specifically based on the type of touch (come over the join > in the play or growl at the aggression). Again I bet the house that > neurons are firing in my dog's brain, but would we call them mirror neurons? > > Again, I'm not saying what Ramachadran is wrong, simply that when you get > past the immediate empirical evidence most of it is a story he is spinning > out from it. > > Michael > ________________________________________ > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] on behalf > of Robert Lake [boblake@georgiasouthern.edu] > Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 11:34 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: Re: [xmca] Polls are closed: Manfred Holodynsk's article is choice > > Andy, > Have you ever smiled at a baby and had them smile back? > There is nothing metaphysical about that :-). > Did you watch the TED talk? > RL > > On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 10:17 AM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com > >wrote: > > > On 17 March 2013 12:15, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote: > > > > > Robert, if I were to suggest that "mirror neurons" are a metaphyical > > > belief which have no more basis in existence than phlogiston or ether, > > > would that actually change anything? Have you ever been misled by the > > > mistaken observation of "mirror neuron" activity, or has observation > of a > > > mirror neuron ever explained some otherwise inexplicable event? So far > > as I > > > know, leaving aside surgical intervention, neurons only react to other > > > neurons by direct electrochemical interaction. > > > Andy > > > > > > > > There's theoretical room for the rest of the electromagnetic spectrum, > e.g. > > optics. I think Robert is referring to the whites of the eyes > phenomena > > observed in monkey(?) brain scans. > > > > In this sense its ontological status is that one can draw a dotted line > > around a scan image etc and name it. > > > > As far as the autism line of reasoning goes, I guess its akin to the > > phenomena of blindness in children who have (unfortunately) have had a > > patch over their eye during particular neurological developments whereby > > they are later unable to see out of what looks like a perfectly > functioning > > eye. > > > > I will leave it to Robert to speculate on the social genesis of its > > systemic relevance... > > > > Best, > > Huw > > > > > > > > > Robert Lake wrote: > > > > > >> Hi everyone, > > >> I am a relative newcomer to CHAT research, so this (mostly rhetorical) > > >> question is probably > > >> old hat to many of you. It concerns Holodynski's article as it may or > > may > > >> not relate to the notion of mirror neurons as described by > Ramachandran. > > >> > > >> http://www.ted.com/talks/vs_**ramachandran_the_neurons_that_** > > >> shaped_civilization.html< > > > http://www.ted.com/talks/vs_ramachandran_the_neurons_that_shaped_civilization.html > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> If I understand this correctly, in Holodynski's view, a caregiver > > mirrors > > >> back to the child, his or her own emotions through gesture and facial > > >> expressions. What if the child's emotions/expressions fall into the > > range > > >> of autism spectrum disorders? Can ZPD's be created that in turn help > > create > > >> and develop "empathy" neurons in us regardless of our age level? Are > > there > > >> some cultures that are more emotionally and perhaps empathically > > evolved? > > >> > > >> Thank-you MCA team and Professor Holodynski for this article. I think > > it > > >> represents the a key component for the future of cultural/historical > > >> research. > > >> > > >> Fascinated and curious, > > >> Robert Lake > > >> > > >> > > >> On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 10:59 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net > > <mailto: > > >> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: > > >> > > >> The article for discussion is now available at: > > >> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/**Journal/pdfs/20-1-holodynski.**pdf< > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Journal/pdfs/20-1-holodynski.pdf> > > >> > > >> > > >> Andy > > >> > > >> mike cole wrote: > > >> > > >> We will make available Manfred Holodynski's article - The > > >> Internalization > > >> Theory of Emotions: A Cultural Historical Approach to the > > >> Development of Emotions - available > > >> for discussion as soon as possible. Then let the discussion > > begin! > > >> > > >> mike > > >> ______________________________**____________ > > >> _____ > > >> xmca mailing list > > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> > > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca< > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > ------------------------------**------------------------------ > > >> **------------ > > >> *Andy Blunden* > > >> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ < > > http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/ > > >> **> > > >> > > >> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts > > >> http://marxists.academia.edu/**AndyBlunden< > > http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden> > > >> > > >> ______________________________**____________ > > >> _____ > > >> xmca mailing list > > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> > > >> > > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca< > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> *Robert Lake Ed.D. > > >> *Associate Professor > > >> Social Foundations of Education > > >> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > > >> Georgia Southern University > > >> P. O. Box 8144 > > >> Phone: (912) 478-0355 > > >> Fax: (912) 478-5382 > > >> Statesboro, GA 30460 > > >> > > >> /Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and education is > its > > >> midwife./ > > >> /-/John Dewey. > > >> > > >> > > > -- > > > ------------------------------**------------------------------** > > > ------------ > > > > > > *Andy Blunden* > > > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ > > > Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts > > > http://marxists.academia.edu/**AndyBlunden< > > http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden> > > > > > > > > > ______________________________**____________ > > > _____ > > > xmca mailing list > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca< > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca> > > > > > __________________________________________ > > _____ > > xmca mailing list > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca > > > > > > -- > *Robert Lake Ed.D. > *Associate Professor > Social Foundations of Education > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading > Georgia Southern University > P. O. Box 8144 > Phone: (912) 478-0355 > Fax: (912) 478-5382 > Statesboro, GA 30460 > > *Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and education is its > midwife.* > *-*John Dewey. > __________________________________________ > _____ > xmca mailing list > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca > > > __________________________________________ > _____ > xmca mailing list > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca > __________________________________________ _____ xmca mailing list xmca@weber.ucsd.edu http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca