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Re: [xmca] Polls are closed: Manfred Holodynsk's article is choice
Michael, robert
Not to get off focus but the assumption of mirror neurons is that the
*same* neurons that fire when I pick up a glass of water are firing in the
person perceiving my action.
It is the notion of *identity* that is being assumed to be relevant to the
research on mirror neurons.
This *fact* is then used to justify a 2nd person frame of understanding as
an emerging inter-subjective framework.
Whether this assumption of the primacy of intersubjectivity as 2nd person
frames is *justified* can be argued from multiple perspectives, but mirror
neurons are used as a justification for the primacy of this 2nd person
interpretation.
The notion of *expressive signs* AS *gestures* can also be used to support
an assumption of the primacy of 2nd person frames.
What is being mediated is the way gestures are *responded* to. Expressive
signs as 2nd person understanding and expressive symbols as 3rd person
frames as developing FROM 2nd person expressive signs is one way to *read*
the function of expressive signs AND symbols.
Our recent discussion of Dewey's notion of *experience* also can be brought
into this conversation.
Larry
On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 9:14 AM, Glassman, Michael <glassman.13@osu.edu>wrote:
> Hi Robert,
>
> I know we're not supposed to say this about brain researchers but it seems
> Ramachadran makes an extraordinary leap. What do we actually know. When
> we see somebody engage in an action neurons in our brain fire. This makes
> an extraordinary amount of sense. We have known this for a while I think
> and it is the logical extension of vicarious learning. But then he takes
> this one fact and spins this story out of it about the entire development
> of culture. It may be true, but I think we have no idea.
>
> I would bet you a million dollars that when I do something with my dog
> laying on the ground in front of me a percentage of neurons in his brain
> fires as well. But he doesn't mirror my action, he reacts to it incredibly
> quickly (more quickly than most humans). What do we call these neurons.
> Or to take the specific example, we watch somebody being touched and the
> mirror neurons in our brain react to that so we put ourselves in the place
> of that person. But if somebody came up to me and touched me my dog would
> react much more specifically based on the type of touch (come over the join
> in the play or growl at the aggression). Again I bet the house that
> neurons are firing in my dog's brain, but would we call them mirror neurons?
>
> Again, I'm not saying what Ramachadran is wrong, simply that when you get
> past the immediate empirical evidence most of it is a story he is spinning
> out from it.
>
> Michael
> ________________________________________
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] on behalf
> of Robert Lake [boblake@georgiasouthern.edu]
> Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 11:34 AM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Polls are closed: Manfred Holodynsk's article is choice
>
> Andy,
> Have you ever smiled at a baby and had them smile back?
> There is nothing metaphysical about that :-).
> Did you watch the TED talk?
> RL
>
> On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 10:17 AM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > On 17 March 2013 12:15, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Robert, if I were to suggest that "mirror neurons" are a metaphyical
> > > belief which have no more basis in existence than phlogiston or ether,
> > > would that actually change anything? Have you ever been misled by the
> > > mistaken observation of "mirror neuron" activity, or has observation
> of a
> > > mirror neuron ever explained some otherwise inexplicable event? So far
> > as I
> > > know, leaving aside surgical intervention, neurons only react to other
> > > neurons by direct electrochemical interaction.
> > > Andy
> > >
> > >
> > There's theoretical room for the rest of the electromagnetic spectrum,
> e.g.
> > optics. I think Robert is referring to the whites of the eyes
> phenomena
> > observed in monkey(?) brain scans.
> >
> > In this sense its ontological status is that one can draw a dotted line
> > around a scan image etc and name it.
> >
> > As far as the autism line of reasoning goes, I guess its akin to the
> > phenomena of blindness in children who have (unfortunately) have had a
> > patch over their eye during particular neurological developments whereby
> > they are later unable to see out of what looks like a perfectly
> functioning
> > eye.
> >
> > I will leave it to Robert to speculate on the social genesis of its
> > systemic relevance...
> >
> > Best,
> > Huw
> >
> >
> >
> > > Robert Lake wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi everyone,
> > >> I am a relative newcomer to CHAT research, so this (mostly rhetorical)
> > >> question is probably
> > >> old hat to many of you. It concerns Holodynski's article as it may or
> > may
> > >> not relate to the notion of mirror neurons as described by
> Ramachandran.
> > >>
> > >> http://www.ted.com/talks/vs_**ramachandran_the_neurons_that_**
> > >> shaped_civilization.html<
> >
> http://www.ted.com/talks/vs_ramachandran_the_neurons_that_shaped_civilization.html
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> If I understand this correctly, in Holodynski's view, a caregiver
> > mirrors
> > >> back to the child, his or her own emotions through gesture and facial
> > >> expressions. What if the child's emotions/expressions fall into the
> > range
> > >> of autism spectrum disorders? Can ZPD's be created that in turn help
> > create
> > >> and develop "empathy" neurons in us regardless of our age level? Are
> > there
> > >> some cultures that are more emotionally and perhaps empathically
> > evolved?
> > >>
> > >> Thank-you MCA team and Professor Holodynski for this article. I think
> > it
> > >> represents the a key component for the future of cultural/historical
> > >> research.
> > >>
> > >> Fascinated and curious,
> > >> Robert Lake
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 10:59 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
> > <mailto:
> > >> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> The article for discussion is now available at:
> > >> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/**Journal/pdfs/20-1-holodynski.**pdf<
> > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Journal/pdfs/20-1-holodynski.pdf>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Andy
> > >>
> > >> mike cole wrote:
> > >>
> > >> We will make available Manfred Holodynski's article - The
> > >> Internalization
> > >> Theory of Emotions: A Cultural Historical Approach to the
> > >> Development of Emotions - available
> > >> for discussion as soon as possible. Then let the discussion
> > begin!
> > >>
> > >> mike
> > >> ______________________________**____________
> > >> _____
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> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > ------------------------------**------------------------------
> > >> **------------
> > >> *Andy Blunden*
> > >> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <
> > http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/
> > >> **>
> > >>
> > >> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
> > >> http://marxists.academia.edu/**AndyBlunden<
> > http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden>
> > >>
> > >> ______________________________**____________
> > >> _____
> > >> xmca mailing list
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> > >>
> > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> *Robert Lake Ed.D.
> > >> *Associate Professor
> > >> Social Foundations of Education
> > >> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
> > >> Georgia Southern University
> > >> P. O. Box 8144
> > >> Phone: (912) 478-0355
> > >> Fax: (912) 478-5382
> > >> Statesboro, GA 30460
> > >>
> > >> /Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and education is
> its
> > >> midwife./
> > >> /-/John Dewey.
> > >>
> > >>
> > > --
> > > ------------------------------**------------------------------**
> > > ------------
> > >
> > > *Andy Blunden*
> > > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> > > Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
> > > http://marxists.academia.edu/**AndyBlunden<
> > http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden>
> > >
> > >
> > > ______________________________**____________
> > > _____
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> > >
> > __________________________________________
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> >
>
>
>
> --
> *Robert Lake Ed.D.
> *Associate Professor
> Social Foundations of Education
> Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
> Georgia Southern University
> P. O. Box 8144
> Phone: (912) 478-0355
> Fax: (912) 478-5382
> Statesboro, GA 30460
>
> *Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and education is its
> midwife.*
> *-*John Dewey.
> __________________________________________
> _____
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
>
> __________________________________________
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