Re: [xmca] Perezhivanie and Dewey's concept of experience

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

Hi Armando--

Is there text in English that you could point us to? It would not be at all
surprising if
Rubinshtein had similar formulations (vivencia not withstanding!).

Part of the problem might be that Brushlinsky was a less effective advocate
of his hero than Luria of his, so we have less to go by.

Perhaps our Russian colleagues can enlighten us.

mike

On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 4:50 AM, Armando Perez Yera <armandop@uclv.edu.cu>wrote:

> MIKE....
> IN CHAPTER 1 OF PRINCIPLES OF PSYCHOLOGY...THE "BREAK" AS WE CALL THE BOOK
> AS STUDENTS.... WHEN RUBINSTEIN WORK THE OBJECT OF PSYCHOLOGY
> HE SPEEK ABOUT THE NATURE OF THE PSYCHIC.  I READ  VERY INTERESTINGLY
>  "THE CONSCIOUSNESS OF A LIVING PERSONALIATY IS ALWAYS INCORPORATED IN A
> DINAMYCAL VIVENCIA (EXCUSE ME) AND FOR THAT IS ALWAYS THE UNITY OF KOWLEDGE
> AND EXPERIENCING AS I INTERPRETE THE TEXT (IN HERE EXPERIENCING IS
> PEREZHEVANIE????)
> ARMANDO
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] En
> nombre de mike cole
> Enviado el: martes, 05 de marzo de 2013 5:12
> Para: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> CC: Fernando Luis Gonzalez Rey; Boris Meshcheryakov
> Asunto: Re: [xmca] Perezhivanie and Dewey's concept of experience
>
> Hi Armando-- What Rubenshtein text would you suggest as a starting point
> for his undestanding of perezhivanie? Did he use the term. Certainly, the
> subective point of view/positition was important to Rubenshtein, but where
> did he discuss perezhivanie.
>
> Lets read it so we can answer your question!
>
> ?
>
> mike
>
> On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 7:55 AM, Armando Perez Yera <armandop@uclv.edu.cu
> >wrote:
>
> > WHY YOU NEVER TAKE RUBINSTEIN FOR ANALYSIS OF PERESHEVANE ARMANDO
> >
> > ________________________________________
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> > Behalf Of Larry Purss [lpscholar2@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 10:44 AM
> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] Perezhivanie and Dewey's concept of experience
> >
> > Martin,
> > This way of understanding experience, striving to overcome the dualism
> > that keep retuning/recurring introduced as a *unity* of consciousness
> > seems to be playing in the same field as Husserl overcoming the
> > dogmatism of an immanent consciousness. Husserl attempted to show that
> > consciousness IS intentionality which means we are *in* the matter and
> > not enclosed within ourselves. The primacy of self-consciousness is an
> > error, phenomenologically speaking. Self-consciousness occurs/recurs
> > only insofar as there is consciousness of objects. Gadamer points out
> > that was clear to Aristotle and to Franz Brentano, who
> > revived/recollected Greek psychology and was Husserl's teacher.
> > Gadamer also points out when Heidegger wrote *being and time* it was
> > mistakenly assumed Heidegger was overcoming Husserl. Gadamer
> > understands Heidegger as elaborating and extending the husserlian
> > genre in a creative expansion internal to phenomenology. Heidegger
> > developed the finite structure of human interpretation/translation
> > which is not inconsistent with phenomenology. However Heidegger did
> > introduce new questions such as the notion of *care* which explores
> > anticipation of the future in contrast to the presencing of Husserl's
>  notion of  consciousness as *in* matter.
> >
> > One further fragment on Aristotle as an ancestor. A friend of Luther,
> > named Melanchthon, reintroduced the whole tradition of Aristotelian
> > philosophy into the protestant schools in Wittenberg as foundational
> > to learning to READ and understand. Gadamer believes here at this
> > turning point in history schooling shifted. In the 1850's in the USA
> > we turned to the Prussian state who had introduced public schooling as a
> way to modernize.
> >
> > The question of experience as expression *within* settings seems to
> > run through dilthey, with multiple currents and recurring rhythms.
> > Victor turner explores the metaphor of pilgrimage and quest/questions
> > within experience as expression/understanding.
> > A long meandering thread triggered by reflections on Aristotle. It may
> > be off base, or I may be on the wrong field of play, but it is where
> > my questions invited me to travel.
> >
> > Martin, thank you for your continuing leads into within this way of
> > dwelling within the world. Much appreciated.
> >
> > Larry
> > On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > Larry,
> > >
> > > Seems to me that in the Lectures on Child Psychology, where LSV
> > introduces
> > > the term 'experience' in a discussion of the importance of grasping
> > > the social situation of development, he was striving once again to
> > > overcome
> > the
> > > dualisms that keep returning. He wrote that "In modern theory,
> > > experience is introduced as a unity of consciousness, that is, a
> > > unity in which the basic properties of consciousness are given as
> > > such, while in attention
> > and
> > > in thinking, the connection of consciousness is not given." He's
> > > building here on the line of Romantic philosophy (Dilthey held the
> > > chair of philosophy at the University of Berlin that Hegel had held)
> > > that insisted that there is a level of human existence and
> > > understanding that is prior
> > to
> > > the subject/object split; a way of knowing the world that doesn't
> > > require mental representations. Perhaps he was reacting to
> > > limitations he'd run into in his own analysis of thinking (that in
> > > thinking "the unity of consciousness as such disappears"). Perhaps
> > > he was returning to (or
> > perhaps
> > > he never lost sight of) the fundamental importance of emotion (the
> > > alpha and omega) in human psychology.
> > >
> > > If this is on the right track, then he'd have to see a potential for
> > > change in experience, no? He'd have to understand experience as
> > > itself
> > > dynamic: transforming and transformative. And he in fact wrote that
> > > a developmental crisis "is most of all a turning point that is
> > > expressed in the fact that the child passes from one method of
> > > experiencing the environment to another," and in addition that
> > > "behind every experience, there is a real, dynamic action of the
> > > environment" - this is what leads
> > to
> > > the crisis, a crisis that must still be understood as "internal" to
> > > the child-environment system.
> > >
> > > It seems to me that this brings us right back to the topic of the
> > > Psychology of Art - or perhaps better to say that LSV's central
> > > interest never changed. The work of art is an environmental
> > > 'mechanism' that we become lost in, in an engagement that at its
> > > best is deeply emotional and that can be profoundly transformative.
> > > A good play, a good book, a good movie, is an experience, an event,
> > > a rupture in everyday routine experience, that grabs us and shakes
> > > us. This phenomenon seems not to fit into the categories of subject
> > > and object, and this means that grasping intellectually how it works
> > > can help us develop theory that avoids those pestilent categories.
> > > If that took him back to Aristotle, why not?Dialectics was also a
> Greek word!
> > >
> > > Martin
> > >
> > > On Mar 2, 2013, at 8:27 PM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Martin
> > > > This was a fascinating new thread you opened up. I appreciate how
> > > > you weaved Aristotle and catharsis into our exploration of
> > > > experience and
> > > *an*
> > > > experience.
> > > > Larry
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Mar 2, 2013 at 5:12 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Thanks for that Martin. All very interesting indeed.
> > > >> I always tend to presume that wherever an ancient source is cited
> > > >> for
> > > some
> > > >> concept, unless the citing author is a classical scholar, there
> > > >> was
> > some
> > > >> *mediating* source which is the *proximate* source of the
> > > >> concept. The attached excerpt which I think I took from the CW of
> > > >> Freud, explains
> > > where
> > > >> I got the idea that Freud got it from Josef Breuer (mediated via
> > > >> a
> > > friend
> > > >> who is au fait with Freudian thought). But, maybe Vygotsky was
> > studying
> > > >> Aristotle. I'l have a look at that section of "The Psychology of
> Art".
> > > >> Thanks.
> > > >> But sources aside (I defer to you on that, Martin), the
> > > >> descriptions
> > you
> > > >> have provided of catharsis square with my understanding as well.
> > > >> I appreciate how you have made the connection between the usual
> > > >> Feudian meaning of catharsis, and the aesthetic process which was
> > > >> central for
> > > the
> > > >> young Vygotsky - and Dewey too apparently! But I don't see this
> > > >> in Vygotsky's later work anywhere. Would be interested if you can
> > > >> find anything about catharsis in this vein post-1924.
> > > >> Also, I can't recall where I read something about art which
> > > >> explained
> > > why
> > > >> art is necessary to communicate an experience directly, by
> > > >> allowing
> > the
> > > >> audience to "re-experience" the experience, rather than an
> > > >> explanation
> > > of
> > > >> it. Dewey? Stanislavski? Vygotsky? Do you know?
> > > >>
> > > >> Andy
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Martin Packer wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> Here's Victor Turner, in the book I mentioned in my previous
> > > >>> message,
> > > on
> > > >>> what for Dilthey makes a difference between 'experience' and
> > > >>> '*an*
> > > >>> experience':
> > > >>>
> > > >>> "These experiences that erupt from or disrupt routinized,
> > > >>> repetitive behavior begin with shocks of pain or pleasure... Then
> > > >>> the emotions of
> > > past
> > > >>> experience color the images and outlines revived by present shock.
> > What
> > > >>> happens next is an anxious need to find meaning in what has
> > > diconcerted us,
> > > >>> whether by pain or pleasure, and converted mere experience into
> > > >>> *an* experience. All this when we try to put past and present
> together"
> > > (36).
> > > >>>
> > > >>> "Aesthetics, then, are those phases in a given structure or
> > processual
> > > >>> unit of experience which either constitute a fulfillment that
> > > >>> reaches
> > > the
> > > >>> depths of the experiencer's being (as Dewey put it) or
> > > >>> constitute the necessary obstacles and flaws that provoke the
> > > >>> joyous struggle to
> > > achieve
> > > >>> the consummation surpassing pleasure and equilibrium, which is
> > > >>> indeed
> > > the
> > > >>> joy and happiness of fulfillment" (38).
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I'm not sure why Andy attributes Vygotsky's notion of catharsis
> > > >>> to Bleuler and considers Aristotle irrelevant. It is to
> > > >>> Aristotle's
> > > writing
> > > >>> that LSV himself attributes the concept, in the Psychology of Art.
> > > >>> Catharsis for the Greeks was "a sudden emotional breakdown or
> > > >>> climax
> > > that
> > > >>> constitutes overwhelming feelings of great pity, sorrow,
> > > >>> laughter, or
> > > any
> > > >>> extreme change in emotion that results in renewal, restoration,
> > > >>> and revitalization" (as Wikipedia has it).
> > > >>> Viacheslav Ivanov, who LSV refers to in the Psych of Art,
> > > >>> considered catharsis (a la Aristotle) to be the way a novel, for
> > > >>> example, grips
> > > and
> > > >>> affects its readers and leads them to self- knowledge. Catharsis
> > > >>> is
> > not
> > > >>> only an aesthetic affect, it is the engine of positive
> > > >>> historical
> > > action.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Vygotsky's own definition of catharsis spells out this dynamic
> > > >>> and transformative character in some detail, reminiscent of both
> > > >>> Ivanov
> > > (though
> > > >>> he didn't accept Ivanov's Symbolism) and Turner on Dilthey.
> > > >>> Catharsis
> > > is "a
> > > >>> complex transformation of feelings," an "affective contradiction"
> > that
> > > >>> results in resolution: in short, a dialectical process on the
> > > >>> level
> > of
> > > >>> emotion. Feeling alone is not sufficient to bring about the
> > > psychological
> > > >>> transformation that Vygotsky is interested in; it is the work of
> > > >>> art
> > > that
> > > >>> has the power to initiate "the creative act of overcoming the
> > feeling,
> > > >>> resolving it, conquering it."
> > > >>> Martin
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Mar 2, 2013, at 4:13 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> Re boundaries of experience and Dewey. In his book on education
> > > >>>> and experience he quotes "the poet" in a relevant way
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> I am a part of all that I have met; Yet all experience is an
> > > >>>> arch wherethro'
> > > >>>> Gleams that untravell'd world, whose margin fades For ever and
> > > >>>> for ever when I move.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> The poet was Tennyson, the *I*, Ulysses.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> mike
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 8:50 PM, Larry Purss
> > > >>>> <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
> > > >>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> Mike,
> > > >>>>> I find this topic very fertile ground which may need to be
> > > *reworked*.
> > > >>>>> Robert mentioned Dewey was criticized for not having an
> > > understanding of
> > > >>>>> the *tragic soul*   Andy mentioned that an experienced must be
> > > >>>>> *bounded*.
> > > >>>>> I would like to add further reflections from Tom Leddy's
> > > >>>>> article
> > you
> > > >>>>> attached on Dewey's Aesthetics. I am referring to page 34 & 35
> > where
> > > >>>>> Dewey
> > > >>>>> is exploring the common substance of the Arts. This section is
> > > >>>>> a response to the *tragic soul* and *bounded* experience.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> The creative process BEGINS with a "total seizure", a "mood",
> > > >>>>> which determines the development of art into parts.  THIS
> > > >>>>> *element* Dewey refers to as a *penetrating quality* which is
> > > >>>>> immediately experienced in
> > all
> > > >>>>> parts
> > > >>>>> of the work. It is so pervasive we take it for granted.
> > > >>>>> Without
> > this
> > > >>>>> penetrating quality the parts would only be mechanically related.
> > >  The
> > > >>>>> organic whole IS the parts PERMEATED by this penetrating quality.
> > It
> > > >>>>> may be
> > > >>>>> called the SPIRIT of the work. It is also the work's *reality*
> > > >>>>> in
> > > that
> > > >>>>> it
> > > >>>>> makes us experience the work AS *real*  This penetrating
> > > >>>>> quality is
> > > the
> > > >>>>> BACKGOUND that qualifies everything in the foreground.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> What are the *boundaries* of this background which Dewey calls
> > > >>>>> *the setting*?  Dewey's answer is thought provoking. He
> > > >>>>> assumes that
> > > although
> > > >>>>> experiences have bounded edges like those of their objects,
> > > >>>>> the
> > > whole of
> > > >>>>> *an* experience, and especially its qualitative penetrating
> > *spirit*
> > > >>>>> within
> > > >>>>> the object, EXTENDS INDEFINITELY. This penetrating quality of
> > > >>>>> the experience is THAT which is not focused within the
> > > >>>>> experience.  The margins of our experience shade into that
> > > >>>>> indefinate expanse.  This
> > > experiential
> > > >>>>> penetrating backgound is only made CONSCIOUS within the
> > > >>>>> specific
> > > objects
> > > >>>>> that form the focus.  Behind every explicit experience there
> > > >>>>> is something implicit that we call *vague* but this vagueness
> > > >>>>> was not vague in
> > the
> > > >>>>> ORIGINAL experience for this penetrating quality is a FUNCTION
> > > >>>>> of
> > the
> > > >>>>> whole
> > > >>>>> *situation*  An experience *is mystical*, Dewey believes, to
> > > >>>>> the
> > > extent
> > > >>>>> this feeling of a penetrating background is INTENSE. This
> > penetrating
> > > >>>>> quality is particularly intense in certain works of art, for
> > example
> > > IN
> > > >>>>> TRAGEDY.  A work of art must include something not understood.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> I am not sure if Vygotsky shares a *family resemblance* with
> > > >>>>> this expansive, penetrating sense of *substance* which makes
> > > >>>>> reality
> > FEEL
> > > >>>>> *real*. The question of the boundedness of *an* experience,
> > > >>>>> from
> > > Dewey's
> > > >>>>> understanding certainly was reflecting on the *tragic soul*
> > > >>>>> within *settings*.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Larry
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 9:17 AM, mike cole
> > > >>>>> <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> It all moves so quickly it is hard to take it all in, Larry,
> > > >>>>>> let
> > > alone
> > > >>>>>> find time to comment.I am still back on rhythmicity which I
> > > >>>>>> am thinking of from the perspective of someone who thinks of
> > > >>>>>> communication as patterns of coordination over time.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> In this regard, it seems to me that many of Durkheim's ideas
> > > >>>>>> in Elementary Forms of Religious Experience are highly
> > > >>>>>> relevant. Durkheim's pluses and minuses
> > are, I
> > > >>>>>> know, a matter of important
> > > >>>>>> debate in themselves, but they come down to me through my
> > engagement
> > > >>>>>> with
> > > >>>>>> cross cultural
> > > >>>>>> research through Levy-Bruhl and Piaget.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> And now, toss in the Bakhtin (the liar or the seer) and it
> > > >>>>>> should
> > be
> > > >>>>>> enough to think about when we are being absent minded.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> mike
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 8:43 AM, Larry Purss <
> > lpscholar2@gmail.com
> > > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Mike,
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> This months themed issue linking felt experience with
> > > >>>>>>> Bahktin's
> > > notion
> > > >>>>>>> of genre's and cultural-historical-activity theory wiil keep
> > > >>>>>>> the current dialgue with Dewey alive.
> > > >>>>>>> I'm anticipating a lively encounter.
> > > >>>>>>> Larry
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 8:20 AM, mike cole
> > > >>>>>>> <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> > > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> We will be re-posting the articles for discussion poll a
> > > >>>>>>>> little
> > > later
> > > >>>>>>>> this
> > > >>>>>>>> morning and
> > > >>>>>>>> restarting the balloting so that the full menu is out there
> > > >>>>>>>> for people to read AND COMMENT ON!
> > > >>>>>>>> :-)
> > > >>>>>>>> mike
> > > >>>>>>>> ______________________________**____________
> > > >>>>>>>> _____
> > > >>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
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> > > >>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<
> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> ______________________________**____________
> > > >>>> _____
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> > > >>>
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> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
> > > >> ------------
> > > >> *Andy Blunden*
> > > >> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> > > >> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
> > > >> http://marxists.academia.edu/**AndyBlunden<
> > > http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden>
> > > >>
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> Fundada el 30 de noviembre de 1952. Visítenos en:  http://www.uclv.edu.cu
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>
> La Universidad Central "Marta Abreu" de Las Villas en su 60 Aniversario.
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