Re: [xmca] Perezhivanie and Dewey's concept of experience

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

Hi Armando-- What Rubenshtein text would you suggest as a starting point
for his undestanding of perezhivanie? Did he use the term. Certainly, the
subective point of view/positition was important to Rubenshtein, but where
did he discuss perezhivanie.

Lets read it so we can answer your question!

?

mike

On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 7:55 AM, Armando Perez Yera <armandop@uclv.edu.cu>wrote:

> WHY YOU NEVER TAKE RUBINSTEIN FOR ANALYSIS OF PERESHEVANE
> ARMANDO
>
> ________________________________________
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On Behalf
> Of Larry Purss [lpscholar2@gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 10:44 AM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Perezhivanie and Dewey's concept of experience
>
> Martin,
> This way of understanding experience, striving to overcome the dualism that
> keep retuning/recurring introduced as a *unity* of consciousness seems to
> be playing in the same field as Husserl overcoming the dogmatism of an
> immanent consciousness. Husserl attempted to show that consciousness IS
> intentionality which means we are *in* the matter and not enclosed within
> ourselves. The primacy of self-consciousness is an error,
> phenomenologically speaking. Self-consciousness occurs/recurs only insofar
> as there is consciousness of objects. Gadamer points out that was clear to
> Aristotle and to Franz Brentano, who revived/recollected Greek psychology
> and was Husserl's teacher.
> Gadamer also points out when Heidegger wrote *being and time* it was
> mistakenly assumed Heidegger was overcoming Husserl. Gadamer understands
> Heidegger as elaborating and extending the husserlian genre in a creative
> expansion internal to phenomenology. Heidegger developed the finite
> structure of human interpretation/translation which is not inconsistent
> with phenomenology. However Heidegger did introduce new questions such as
> the notion of *care* which explores anticipation of the future in contrast
> to the presencing of Husserl's  notion of  consciousness as *in* matter.
>
> One further fragment on Aristotle as an ancestor. A friend of Luther, named
> Melanchthon, reintroduced the whole tradition of Aristotelian philosophy
> into the protestant schools in Wittenberg as foundational to learning to
> READ and understand. Gadamer believes here at this turning point in history
> schooling shifted. In the 1850's in the USA we turned to the Prussian state
> who had introduced public schooling as a way to modernize.
>
> The question of experience as expression *within* settings seems to run
> through dilthey, with multiple currents and recurring rhythms. Victor
> turner explores the metaphor of pilgrimage and quest/questions within
> experience as expression/understanding.
> A long meandering thread triggered by reflections on Aristotle. It may be
> off base, or I may be on the wrong field of play, but it is where my
> questions invited me to travel.
>
> Martin, thank you for your continuing leads into within this way of
> dwelling within the world. Much appreciated.
>
> Larry
> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu> wrote:
>
> > Larry,
> >
> > Seems to me that in the Lectures on Child Psychology, where LSV
> introduces
> > the term 'experience' in a discussion of the importance of grasping the
> > social situation of development, he was striving once again to overcome
> the
> > dualisms that keep returning. He wrote that "In modern theory, experience
> > is introduced as a unity of consciousness, that is, a unity in which the
> > basic properties of consciousness are given as such, while in attention
> and
> > in thinking, the connection of consciousness is not given." He's building
> > here on the line of Romantic philosophy (Dilthey held the chair of
> > philosophy at the University of Berlin that Hegel had held) that insisted
> > that there is a level of human existence and understanding that is prior
> to
> > the subject/object split; a way of knowing the world that doesn't require
> > mental representations. Perhaps he was reacting to limitations he'd run
> > into in his own analysis of thinking (that in thinking "the unity of
> > consciousness as such disappears"). Perhaps he was returning to (or
> perhaps
> > he never lost sight of) the fundamental importance of emotion (the alpha
> > and omega) in human psychology.
> >
> > If this is on the right track, then he'd have to see a potential for
> > change in experience, no? He'd have to understand experience as itself
> > dynamic: transforming and transformative. And he in fact wrote that a
> > developmental crisis "is most of all a turning point that is expressed in
> > the fact that the child passes from one method of experiencing the
> > environment to another," and in addition that "behind every experience,
> > there is a real, dynamic action of the environment" - this is what leads
> to
> > the crisis, a crisis that must still be understood as "internal" to the
> > child-environment system.
> >
> > It seems to me that this brings us right back to the topic of the
> > Psychology of Art - or perhaps better to say that LSV's central interest
> > never changed. The work of art is an environmental 'mechanism' that we
> > become lost in, in an engagement that at its best is deeply emotional and
> > that can be profoundly transformative. A good play, a good book, a good
> > movie, is an experience, an event, a rupture in everyday routine
> > experience, that grabs us and shakes us. This phenomenon seems not to fit
> > into the categories of subject and object, and this means that grasping
> > intellectually how it works can help us develop theory that avoids those
> > pestilent categories. If that took him back to Aristotle, why
> > not?Dialectics was also a Greek word!
> >
> > Martin
> >
> > On Mar 2, 2013, at 8:27 PM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Martin
> > > This was a fascinating new thread you opened up. I appreciate how you
> > > weaved Aristotle and catharsis into our exploration of experience and
> > *an*
> > > experience.
> > > Larry
> > >
> > > On Sat, Mar 2, 2013 at 5:12 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Thanks for that Martin. All very interesting indeed.
> > >> I always tend to presume that wherever an ancient source is cited for
> > some
> > >> concept, unless the citing author is a classical scholar, there was
> some
> > >> *mediating* source which is the *proximate* source of the concept. The
> > >> attached excerpt which I think I took from the CW of Freud, explains
> > where
> > >> I got the idea that Freud got it from Josef Breuer (mediated via a
> > friend
> > >> who is au fait with Freudian thought). But, maybe Vygotsky was
> studying
> > >> Aristotle. I'l have a look at that section of "The Psychology of Art".
> > >> Thanks.
> > >> But sources aside (I defer to you on that, Martin), the descriptions
> you
> > >> have provided of catharsis square with my understanding as well. I
> > >> appreciate how you have made the connection between the usual Feudian
> > >> meaning of catharsis, and the aesthetic process which was central for
> > the
> > >> young Vygotsky - and Dewey too apparently! But I don't see this in
> > >> Vygotsky's later work anywhere. Would be interested if you can find
> > >> anything about catharsis in this vein post-1924.
> > >> Also, I can't recall where I read something about art which explained
> > why
> > >> art is necessary to communicate an experience directly, by allowing
> the
> > >> audience to "re-experience" the experience, rather than an explanation
> > of
> > >> it. Dewey? Stanislavski? Vygotsky? Do you know?
> > >>
> > >> Andy
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Martin Packer wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Here's Victor Turner, in the book I mentioned in my previous message,
> > on
> > >>> what for Dilthey makes a difference between 'experience' and '*an*
> > >>> experience':
> > >>>
> > >>> "These experiences that erupt from or disrupt routinized, repetitive
> > >>> behavior begin with shocks of pain or pleasure… Then the emotions of
> > past
> > >>> experience color the images and outlines revived by present shock.
> What
> > >>> happens next is an anxious need to find meaning in what has
> > diconcerted us,
> > >>> whether by pain or pleasure, and converted mere experience into *an*
> > >>> experience. All this when we try to put past and present together"
> > (36).
> > >>>
> > >>> "Aesthetics, then, are those phases in a given structure or
> processual
> > >>> unit of experience which either constitute a fulfillment that reaches
> > the
> > >>> depths of the experiencer's being (as Dewey put it) or constitute the
> > >>> necessary obstacles and flaws that provoke the joyous struggle to
> > achieve
> > >>> the consummation surpassing pleasure and equilibrium, which is indeed
> > the
> > >>> joy and happiness of fulfillment" (38).
> > >>>
> > >>> I'm not sure why Andy attributes Vygotsky's notion of catharsis to
> > >>> Bleuler and considers Aristotle irrelevant. It is to Aristotle's
> > writing
> > >>> that LSV himself attributes the concept, in the Psychology of Art.
> > >>> Catharsis for the Greeks was "a sudden emotional breakdown or climax
> > that
> > >>> constitutes overwhelming feelings of great pity, sorrow, laughter, or
> > any
> > >>> extreme change in emotion that results in renewal, restoration, and
> > >>> revitalization" (as Wikipedia has it).
> > >>> Viacheslav Ivanov, who LSV refers to in the Psych of Art, considered
> > >>> catharsis (a la Aristotle) to be the way a novel, for example, grips
> > and
> > >>> affects its readers and leads them to self- knowledge. Catharsis is
> not
> > >>> only an aesthetic affect, it is the engine of positive historical
> > action.
> > >>>
> > >>> Vygotsky's own definition of catharsis spells out this dynamic and
> > >>> transformative character in some detail, reminiscent of both Ivanov
> > (though
> > >>> he didn't accept Ivanov's Symbolism) and Turner on Dilthey. Catharsis
> > is "a
> > >>> complex transformation of feelings," an "affective contradiction"
> that
> > >>> results in resolution: in short, a dialectical process on the level
> of
> > >>> emotion. Feeling alone is not sufficient to bring about the
> > psychological
> > >>> transformation that Vygotsky is interested in; it is the work of art
> > that
> > >>> has the power to initiate "the creative act of overcoming the
> feeling,
> > >>> resolving it, conquering it."
> > >>> Martin
> > >>>
> > >>> On Mar 2, 2013, at 4:13 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> Re boundaries of experience and Dewey. In his book on education and
> > >>>> experience he quotes "the poet" in a relevant way
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I am a part of all that I have met;
> > >>>> Yet all experience is an arch wherethro'
> > >>>> Gleams that untravell'd world, whose margin fades
> > >>>> For ever and for ever when I move.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The poet was Tennyson, the *I*, Ulysses.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> mike
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 8:50 PM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
> > >>>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> Mike,
> > >>>>> I find this topic very fertile ground which may need to be
> > *reworked*.
> > >>>>> Robert mentioned Dewey was criticized for not having an
> > understanding of
> > >>>>> the *tragic soul*   Andy mentioned that an experienced must be
> > >>>>> *bounded*.
> > >>>>> I would like to add further reflections from Tom Leddy's article
> you
> > >>>>> attached on Dewey's Aesthetics. I am referring to page 34 & 35
> where
> > >>>>> Dewey
> > >>>>> is exploring the common substance of the Arts. This section is a
> > >>>>> response
> > >>>>> to the *tragic soul* and *bounded* experience.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> The creative process BEGINS with a "total seizure", a "mood", which
> > >>>>> determines the development of art into parts.  THIS *element* Dewey
> > >>>>> refers
> > >>>>> to as a *penetrating quality* which is immediately experienced in
> all
> > >>>>> parts
> > >>>>> of the work. It is so pervasive we take it for granted. Without
> this
> > >>>>> penetrating quality the parts would only be mechanically related.
> >  The
> > >>>>> organic whole IS the parts PERMEATED by this penetrating quality.
> It
> > >>>>> may be
> > >>>>> called the SPIRIT of the work. It is also the work's *reality* in
> > that
> > >>>>> it
> > >>>>> makes us experience the work AS *real*  This penetrating quality is
> > the
> > >>>>> BACKGOUND that qualifies everything in the foreground.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> What are the *boundaries* of this background which Dewey calls *the
> > >>>>> setting*?  Dewey's answer is thought provoking. He assumes that
> > although
> > >>>>> experiences have bounded edges like those of their objects, the
> > whole of
> > >>>>> *an* experience, and especially its qualitative penetrating
> *spirit*
> > >>>>> within
> > >>>>> the object, EXTENDS INDEFINITELY. This penetrating quality of the
> > >>>>> experience is THAT which is not focused within the experience.  The
> > >>>>> margins
> > >>>>> of our experience shade into that indefinate expanse.  This
> > experiential
> > >>>>> penetrating backgound is only made CONSCIOUS within the specific
> > objects
> > >>>>> that form the focus.  Behind every explicit experience there is
> > >>>>> something
> > >>>>> implicit that we call *vague* but this vagueness was not vague in
> the
> > >>>>> ORIGINAL experience for this penetrating quality is a FUNCTION of
> the
> > >>>>> whole
> > >>>>> *situation*  An experience *is mystical*, Dewey believes, to the
> > extent
> > >>>>> this feeling of a penetrating background is INTENSE. This
> penetrating
> > >>>>> quality is particularly intense in certain works of art, for
> example
> > IN
> > >>>>> TRAGEDY.  A work of art must include something not understood.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I am not sure if Vygotsky shares a *family resemblance* with this
> > >>>>> expansive, penetrating sense of *substance* which makes reality
> FEEL
> > >>>>> *real*. The question of the boundedness of *an* experience, from
> > Dewey's
> > >>>>> understanding certainly was reflecting on the *tragic soul* within
> > >>>>> *settings*.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Larry
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 9:17 AM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> It all moves so quickly it is hard to take it all in, Larry, let
> > alone
> > >>>>>> find time to comment.I am still
> > >>>>>> back on rhythmicity which I am thinking of from the perspective of
> > >>>>>> someone who thinks of
> > >>>>>> communication as patterns of coordination over time.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> In this regard, it seems to me that many of Durkheim's ideas in
> > >>>>>> Elementary Forms of Religious
> > >>>>>> Experience are highly relevant. Durkheim's pluses and minuses
> are, I
> > >>>>>> know, a matter of important
> > >>>>>> debate in themselves, but they come down to me through my
> engagement
> > >>>>>> with
> > >>>>>> cross cultural
> > >>>>>> research through Levy-Bruhl and Piaget.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> And now, toss in the Bakhtin (the liar or the seer) and it should
> be
> > >>>>>> enough to think about when we are being absent minded.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> mike
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 8:43 AM, Larry Purss <
> lpscholar2@gmail.com
> > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Mike,
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> This months themed issue linking felt experience with Bahktin's
> > notion
> > >>>>>>> of genre's and cultural-historical-activity theory wiil keep the
> > >>>>>>> current
> > >>>>>>> dialgue with Dewey alive.
> > >>>>>>> I'm anticipating a lively encounter.
> > >>>>>>> Larry
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 8:20 AM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> We will be re-posting the articles for discussion poll a little
> > later
> > >>>>>>>> this
> > >>>>>>>> morning and
> > >>>>>>>> restarting the balloting so that the full menu is out there for
> > >>>>>>>> people
> > >>>>>>>> to
> > >>>>>>>> read
> > >>>>>>>> AND COMMENT ON!
> > >>>>>>>> :-)
> > >>>>>>>> mike
> > >>>>>>>> ______________________________**____________
> > >>>>>>>> _____
> > >>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> > >>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>> ______________________________**____________
> > >>>> _____
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> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
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> > >>>
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> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
> > >> ------------
> > >> *Andy Blunden*
> > >> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> > >> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
> > >> http://marxists.academia.edu/**AndyBlunden<
> > http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden>
> > >>
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> La Universidad Central "Marta Abreu" de Las Villas en su 60 Aniversario.
> Fundada el 30 de noviembre de 1952. Visítenos en:  http://www.uclv.edu.cu
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