Re: [xmca] schools-without-computers-by-choice-and-conviction-that-they-dont-help-kids

[Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>]

On 13 November 2011 00:40, Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> wrote:

> What is there in social life that we can talk about that is not "fantasy"?
>

Knowledge.  Empirical, theoretical, statistical, inductive and deductive...


>
> And, connecting to the other thread, is "alienation" fantasy? (maybe more
> of a phantasmagoria? (to play with Marx's camera obscura metaphor a bit)).
>

I'd say no.  Though we can see how one can encourage the other.


>
> -greg
> p.s. for those interested in what I'm after here, I'm trying to cut a path
> between Marx's humanism and Max Stirner's nihilism - to recognize the
> importance of "fantasy" (something that seems to have no place in Marx's
> thinking) without falling into a subjective idealism (where Stirner ends
> up). Walking a razor's edge?
>

I'd say it was the contents of the thinking that make it fantasy.  The
psychological process, tempered with a willingness to check/try out ones
ideas, can be fruitful and is not necessarily something I'd classify as
fantasy.

Huw


> On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 3:14 PM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > On 12 November 2011 20:48, Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Huw,
> > >
> > > I get the basic idea of where you are coming from with this. I'm
> familiar
> > > with Paul Willis' use of the unfortunate term "penetrations" in his
> book
> > > Learning to Labo(u)r. It is quite similar to Bourdieu's notion of being
> > > able to see through ideology and into the "real" relations between
> things
> > > (my scare quotes around real). I see both Willis and Bourdieu as
> > developing
> > > Marxist ideas.
> > >
> >
> > I don't recall coming across the phrase in literature, so be assured I
> > wasn't using it as term.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Having said that, I still have some concerns (aside from the
> unfortunate
> > > term "penetrations"). My concern is that there is a posited "real" that
> > the
> > > critical critic has available to them that is not available to others
> > > (maybe we would say that he has the intellectual "equipment" to
> > "penetrate"
> > > reality). I don't have a problem with the idea that the critical critic
> > has
> > > a different and useful perspective on things, I just don't agree that
> we
> > > should speak of this in terms of a better grasp of reality.
> > >
> > > Instead, I would say that the critical critic has a better perspective
> > FOR
> > > some particular ends. But I'm not convinced that it is necessarily
> > because
> > > their perspective is "more real" or closer to reality. It depends on
> what
> > > reality, and what for.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > "Perspectives is 'more real'" reads like a typological error to me.  The
> > means of representing perspectives are inherently real, by virtue of
> their
> > being represented.  It is the truthfulness of the existence of the
> > realities they represent which is the point.   The representation of a
> > fantasy is very real, but the thing pointed to by this representation is
> > not, it is questionable, and this questioning entails the logic of
> > truthfulness.  Likewise the 'very real effect' of a fantasy does not
> refer
> > to the reality of the thing pointed to by the fantasy, it refers to the
> > real effect of a real representation.
> >
> > Huw
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Elsewhere Bourdieu notes that misrecognition ("misknowing" - i.e.,
> > > meconnaissance) is absolutely essential to social life. Misrecognition
> is
> > > at the heart of meaning - without it we encounter a meaningless,
> lifeless
> > > world. So I'd suggest that it is better to be honest about our
> > shortcomings
> > > when it comes to reality. Better to ask what a given way of "seeing" is
> > > good for. What does it allow us to see and do?
> > >
> > > -greg
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 1:13 PM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com
> > > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 27 October 2011 22:14, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 27 October 2011 20:56, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On 27 October 2011 20:47, Greg Thompson <
> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
> > > > >wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> Huw,
> > > > >>> Is reality really something to be "penetrated."
> > > > >>> -greg
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> If you wish to get from one side of a city to another, there are
> > > finite
> > > > >> ways of doing so using conventional transport.  If you wish to
> > > > articulate
> > > > >> that intention in terms of a particular route, you will have to
> > > mentally
> > > > >> penetrate the fog of obstacles from A to B prior to an accurate
> > > > >> articulation.  Does 'penetrating to reality' sound better?
> >  Hopefully
> > > > the
> > > > >> gist is clear.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > > ... but that also the intention successfully acted upon is a change
> > and
> > > > > thereby a form of penetrating reality.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > I thought this loose-end might be helpful.  Bourdieu, in
> 'Distinction'
> > > > p387, expressed this aspect:
> > > >
> > > > "What the relation to 'mass' (and, a fortiori, 'elite') cultural
> > products
> > > > reproduces, reactivates and reinforces is not the monotony of the
> > > > production line or office but social relation which underlies
> > > working-class
> > > > experience of the world, whereby his labour and the product of his
> > > labour,
> > > > opus proprium, present themselves to the worker as opus alienum,
> > > > 'alienated' labour.
> > > >
> > > > i.e. the difference between a participatory, intentionally
> influential
> > > > relation and a passive one.
> > > >
> > > > Huw
> > > > __________________________________________
> > > > _____
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> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > > Sanford I. Berman Post-Doctoral Scholar
> > > Department of Communication
> > > University of California, San Diego
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> >
>
>
>
> --
> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> Sanford I. Berman Post-Doctoral Scholar
> Department of Communication
> University of California, San Diego
> __________________________________________
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> xmca mailing list
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