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Re: [xmca] Cultural memory
Andy, Greg, Tony
I have been reflecting on language as genres, texts or traditions. What is
the relation of "mere" interactionalism to "texts". One approach is to
place language or texts between the dyad and language becomes the mediating
artefact coordinating the interactions within the dyad.
What if we move the pieces and place the more "skillful" person
[knowledgeability] between the less skilled person and the "text". The
person with more knowledgeability in moving skillfully within these
linquistic artefacts [and other material artifacts] introduces, through
mutually coordinating the the less skillful person & the texts, ways of
orienting and dwelling in the world.
This then leaves space for e*motion as an interactional aspect between the
dyad as the person with more knowlegeability guides the novice in developing
the skills of using the cultural artefacts.
I recognize this "analyzing" into "parts" is a heuristic artefact and
neither triangle is "true". It is a particular textual artefact to consider
the relations between the dyad and texts.
Larry
On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 7:16 AM, Tony Whitson <twhitson@udel.edu> wrote:
> It seems to me that Hannah Arendt's _HUMAN CONDITION_ could provide a lot
> of help with these issues. Unfortunately, I don't have time now to dig that
> out; but if somebody else is familiar with that work, maybe they could help.
>
>
>
> On Sat, 15 Oct 2011, Andy Blunden wrote:
>
> Of course you are right Greg that language, whether spoken or written, is
>> the mediating artefact par excellence. But not everyone recognises words as
>> specifically mediating artefacts. The dominant trend of interactionism today
>> regards interactions as a subject-to-subject dyad, and subsumes within each
>> subject their knowledge and facility with language use. So the status of
>> words as artefacts existing prior to and independently of the interacting
>> individuals is invisible. Indeed, the actually words do not exisat prior to
>> the interaction, only the "model" for them, so to speak. The distinction
>> between a text (i.e., the written word) and speech in this context is just
>> that those who do not come from Cultural Psychology or Activity Theory do
>> not take speech as a mediating artefact, but rather a function of the
>> subject. This allows them to pretend that a culture is recreated from
>> scratch every moment as people interact, and the subject's memory and
>> continuing language-ability is the only thing guaranteeing the existence of
>> culture, recreating appropriate words in the course of evey interaction.
>>
>> I agree with you that the distinction between text and speech is entirely
>> secondary but in the context of arguing for the very idea of mediating
>> artefacts it becomes important, because my protagonist just doesn't see the
>> point of considering mediating artefacts, i.e., material objects with social
>> significance, at all. This is what forces me on to the territory of
>> "cultural memory." If cultural memory can be plausibly explained without
>> recourse to the idea of mediating artefacts, then it is just as Deborah
>> suggested, we must agree to disagree, it's just a difference of preference.
>>
>> Do you see what I am getting at?
>> Andy
>>
>> Greg Thompson wrote:
>>
>>> Seems like you're in a pinch Andy. The way you've phrased the problem
>>> makes it something of a riddle to me, for a number of reasons. How do you
>>> pass things by word of mouth but not with texts? Unless by "texts" you meant
>>> written words, in which case, what do you make of oral "texts" passed down
>>> through generations? There are other sorts of ways in which thickly
>>> culturally mediated words and practices, similar to the things that Lucas
>>> mentioned, are passed down through the generations. So I'm with Lucas that
>>> there are lots of examples of cultural practices (activities?) that get
>>> passed on from generation to generation without necessarily having land or
>>> artifacts tied to them. But I also disagree with your "protagonist."
>>> I'd locate the problem somewhere in the notion that words of the mouth
>>> are unmediated expressions of subjectivity. Two big problems here, first,
>>> words, second subjectivity. Taking the second first (b.c. you seem to
>>> suggest that he is positing that "words" are unmediated - more on that
>>> later), if subjectivity has thickly social origins, i.e. is mediated by
>>> culture and place, then aren't things issuing forth going to be mediated by
>>> culture. Volosinov and Bakhtin provide some of the best thinking about this
>>> (I'd strongly suggest Volosinov's Chapter 3 of Marxism and the Philosophy of
>>> Language, titled Language and Objective Psychology).
>>> For me, Andy, the problem arises when you accept your protagonist's
>>> claim that language simply and straightforwardly brings what is inside out.
>>> You skim over language as a mediating artifact. I think there's been some
>>> talk about this lately (some in disagreement with my position), but I just
>>> don't see how you can leave language out as a mediating artifact.
>>> But maybe you can give some convincing examples?
>>> And maybe I'm missing the larger point of your position.
>>> But I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of the times as one in
>>> which people don't see the mediating artifacts around them (I regularly
>>> teach about my favorite mediating artifact: language!). I think the success
>>> of the American TV show Survivor provides good evidence of the
>>> Robinsonade-like fantasies of people today who imagine themselves as great
>>> heroes surviving in the wild. (and I'd add that Volosinov's other well-known
>>> book, Freudianism, speaks very well to the fantasies of the bourgeousie
>>> during times of crisis).
>>> -greg
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 6:54 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net<mailto:
>>> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>> My point is, Lucas, that I doubt that this can be done in fact,
>>> without reliance on one kind or another of enduring artefact. I
>>> need a counterexample to be convinced.
>>> Andy
>>>
>>> Lucas Bietti wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Andy,
>>>
>>> Can these customs be related to ways of behaving
>>> according to
>>> specific social contexts? In a broad sense, 'politeness' in
>>> the pragmatic and discursive sense (to say the right things at
>>> the right time) could be a way of behaving handed down from
>>> one generation to the next based on imitation and correction
>>> by verbal communication among members of the same epistemic
>>> community. This also depends on what you are referring to by
>>> 'cultural memory'.
>>> Lucas
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On October 15, 2011 at 1:54 AM Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > I need some help. I am having a discussion with a supporter
>>> of Robert
>>> > Brandom, who was at ISCAR, but is not an Activity Theorist.
>>> on the
>>> > question of cultural memory.
>>> >
>>> > One of my criticisms of Robert Brandom is that he does not
>>> theorise any
>>> > place for mediation in his theory of normativity. He
>>> supposes that norms
>>> > are transmitted and maintained down the generations by word
>>> of mouth
>>> > (taken to be an unmediated expression of subjectivity), and
>>> artefacts
>>> > (whether texts, tools, buildings, clothes, money) play no
>>> essential role
>>> > in this.
>>> >
>>> > I disagree but I cannot persuade my protagonist.
>>> >
>>> > I challenged him to tell me of a (nonlierate) indigenous
>>> people who
>>> > managed to maintain their customs even after being removed
>>> from their
>>> > land. My protagonist responded by suggesting the Hebrews,
>>> but of course
>>> > the Hebrews had the Old Testament. Recently on xmca we had
>>> the same
>>> > point come up and baseball culture was suggested, and I
>>> responded that I
>>> > didn't think baseball-speak could be maintained without
>>> baseball bats,
>>> > balls, pitches, stadiums, radios, uniforms and other
>>> artefacts used in
>>> > the game.
>>> >
>>> > Am I wrong? Can anyone point to a custom maintained over
>>> generations
>>> > without the use of arefacts (including land and texts as
>>> well as tools,
>>> > but allowing the spoken word)?
>>> >
>>> > Andy
>>> > --
>>> >
>>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
>>> ------------
>>> > *Andy Blunden*
>>> > Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/**toc/hmca20/18/1<http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1>
>>> > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>>> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/ <http://home.mira.net/~andy/>**>
>>> > Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.**aspx?partid=227&pid=34857<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
>>> <http://www.brill.nl/default.**aspx?partid=227&pid=34857<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ______________________________**____________
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>>>
>>>
>>> -- ------------------------------**------------------------------**
>>> ------------
>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>> Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/**toc/hmca20/18/1<http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1>
>>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/<http://home.mira.net/~andy/>
>>> **>
>>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.**aspx?partid=227&pid=34857<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
>>> <http://www.brill.nl/default.**aspx?partid=227&pid=34857<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________**____________
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>>> Sanford I. Berman Post-Doctoral Scholar
>>> Department of Communication
>>> University of California, San Diego
>>>
>>>
>> -- ------------------------------**------------------------------**
>> ------------
>> *Andy Blunden*
>> Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/**toc/hmca20/18/1<http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1>
>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.**aspx?partid=227&pid=34857<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
>>
>> ______________________________**____________
>> _____
>> xmca mailing list
>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>
>>
> Tony Whitson
> UD School of Education
> NEWARK DE 19716
>
> twhitson@udel.edu
> ______________________________**_
>
> "those who fail to reread
> are obliged to read the same story everywhere"
> -- Roland Barthes, S/Z (1970)
>
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