Re: [xmca] Cultural memory

[Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>]

Seems like you're in a pinch Andy. The way you've phrased the problem makes
it something of a riddle to me, for a number of reasons. How do you pass
things by word of mouth but not with texts? Unless by "texts" you meant
written words, in which case, what do you make of oral "texts" passed down
through generations? There are other sorts of ways in which thickly
culturally mediated words and practices, similar to the things that Lucas
mentioned, are passed down through the generations. So I'm with Lucas
that there are lots of examples of cultural practices (activities?) that get
passed on from generation to generation without necessarily having land or
artifacts tied to them. But I also disagree with your "protagonist."

I'd locate the problem somewhere in the notion that words of the mouth are
unmediated expressions of subjectivity. Two big problems here, first, words,
second subjectivity. Taking the second first (b.c. you seem to suggest that
he is positing that "words" are unmediated - more on that later), if
subjectivity has thickly social origins, i.e. is mediated by culture and
place, then aren't things issuing forth going to be mediated by culture.
Volosinov and Bakhtin provide some of the best thinking about this (I'd
strongly suggest Volosinov's Chapter 3 of Marxism and the Philosophy of
Language, titled Language and Objective Psychology).

For me, Andy, the problem arises when you accept your protagonist's claim
that language simply and straightforwardly brings what is inside out. You
skim over language as a mediating artifact. I think there's been some talk
about this lately (some in disagreement with my position), but I just don't
see how you can leave language out as a mediating artifact.
But maybe you can give some convincing examples?
And maybe I'm missing the larger point of your position.

But I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of the times as one in which
people don't see the mediating artifacts around them (I regularly teach
about my favorite mediating artifact: language!). I think the success of the
American TV show Survivor provides good evidence of the Robinsonade-like
fantasies of people today who imagine themselves as great heroes surviving
in the wild. (and I'd add that Volosinov's other well-known book,
Freudianism, speaks very well to the fantasies of the bourgeousie during
times of crisis).

-greg

On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 6:54 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

> My point is, Lucas, that I doubt that this can be done in fact, without
> reliance on one kind or another of enduring artefact. I need a
> counterexample to be convinced.
> Andy
>
> Lucas Bietti wrote:
>
>>
>> Dear Andy,
>>
>>
>> Can these customs be related to ways of behaving according to specific
>> social contexts? In a broad sense, 'politeness' in the pragmatic and
>> discursive sense (to say the right things at the right time) could be a way
>> of behaving handed down from one generation to the next based on imitation
>> and  correction by verbal communication among members of the same epistemic
>> community. This also depends on what you are referring to by 'cultural
>> memory'.
>>
>> Lucas
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On October 15, 2011 at 1:54 AM Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>>
>> > I need some help. I am having a discussion with a supporter of Robert
>> > Brandom, who was at ISCAR, but is not an Activity Theorist. on the
>> > question of cultural memory.
>> >
>> > One of my criticisms of Robert Brandom is that he does not theorise any
>> > place for mediation in his theory of normativity. He supposes that norms
>> > are transmitted and maintained down the generations by word of mouth
>> > (taken to be an unmediated expression of subjectivity), and artefacts
>> > (whether texts, tools, buildings, clothes, money) play no essential role
>> > in this.
>> >
>> > I disagree but I cannot persuade my protagonist.
>> >
>> > I challenged him to tell me of a (nonlierate) indigenous people who
>> > managed to maintain their customs even after being removed from their
>> > land. My protagonist responded by suggesting the Hebrews, but of course
>> > the Hebrews had the Old Testament. Recently on xmca we had the same
>> > point come up and baseball culture was suggested, and I responded that I
>> > didn't think baseball-speak could be maintained without baseball bats,
>> > balls, pitches, stadiums, radios, uniforms and other artefacts used in
>> > the game.
>> >
>> > Am I wrong? Can anyone point to a custom maintained over generations
>> > without the use of arefacts (including land and texts as well as tools,
>> > but allowing the spoken word)?
>> >
>> > Andy
>> > --
>> > ------------------------------**------------------------------**
>> ------------
>> > *Andy Blunden*
>> > Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/**toc/hmca20/18/1<http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1>
>> > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>> > Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.**aspx?partid=227&pid=34857<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
>> >
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>
> --
> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
> ------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/**toc/hmca20/18/1<http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1>
> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.**aspx?partid=227&pid=34857<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
>
>
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-- 
Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
Sanford I. Berman Post-Doctoral Scholar
Department of Communication
University of California, San Diego
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