Re: [xmca] varying definitions of perezhivanie

[Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>]

Andy, I spoke in "biblical" terms as a response to Mike's framing of
"impossibility". I do accept that religious narratives do often speak to our
human condition, and when we engage other traditions such as phenomenology
and cultural-historical theory we are engaging with similar themes.
Normativity and ethical stances are engaged in narratives of suffering and
loss. By poiting to such an extreme sense of loss it helps to crystallize
our underlying notions of how to proceed.

Michael, Dewey's distinction between "habits" and "vital experience" to my
understanding is exploring the same theme of perezhivanie as "adverbial
movement of e*motion. The interplay [or intraplay of intersubjectivity??]
between habits and vital activity would be one way to frame the
conversation.
The notion of "witnessing" in the way I described seems an important aspect
of understanding and knowledgeability in how to move in such situations.

Larry
On Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 7:04 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

> Have you got a reference for that, Michael?
> Andy
>
>
> Michael Glassman wrote:
>
>> Hi Larry, Andy, Michael, Mike,
>>  I don't speak Russian and don't know perezhivanie that well, but just
>> from following the discussion I wonder if it is possible to see perezhivanie
>> in the same light as Dewey's vital experience.  I think for Dewey there are
>> two types of experience, habit and vital experience (and the meaning I would
>> think comes more from the juxtaposition than the word itself).  Experience
>> as habit (created through the larger social group many times) doesn't lead
>> to any change, you just going on doing the things you always do.  Vital
>> experience forces you to confront a new problem, a new issue, that forces
>> you out of habit.  The word that made me think of it was when Larry pointed
>> to Vasilyk suggesting working your way through impossibility as repair.  Can
>> this be seen as the same thing as re-creation of social experience?  Just a
>> thought.
>>  Michael
>>
>> ______________________________**__
>>
>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu on behalf of Andy Blunden
>> Sent: Sun 10/2/2011 3:27 AM
>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> Subject: Re: [xmca] varying definitions of perezhivanie
>>
>>
>>
>> Larry, just remember that Vygotsky says that a perezhivanie is a unit of
>> development, i.e., a cell which encloses all the essential features of
>> the development of ANY person. Transformative experiences don't have to
>> be Biblical in scope, but they do have to be such that you are "unable
>> to go on in the old way," so to speak.
>>
>> Andy
>>
>> Larry Purss wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Hi Mike, Michael, and Andy
>>>
>>> Mike, when I reflect on the experience(s) of a death of a spouse as a
>>> situation of the IMPOSSIBILITY of living, of a disruption of life as
>>> disorienting and without bearings, as grief and suffering with no sense
>>> of
>>> future or meaning this is more than an individual rupture of
>>> "self-regulation" or internal disorientation. It is NOT merely internal
>>> and
>>> requiring the capacity for "differentiation" from the internal
>>> suffering..
>>> The overwhelming pain is a pain of LOSS of bearing within the world. All
>>> the
>>> familiar reference points are shattered.
>>>
>>> Looking within for our bearings becomes IMPOSSIBLE because one's compass
>>> points are shattered and the INscapes are barren deserts without meaning
>>> or
>>> purpose. Signs [semiotic containers] become emptied of meaning and become
>>> containers without content.  The world has forsaken you.  The "space of
>>> reasons" fragments and the center does not hold [Yeats]  This is a dark
>>> night of the soul as the person is rudderless and adrift with no
>>> direction
>>> home.
>>> This way of considering perezhivanie as "experience" is still adverbial
>>> NOT
>>> an entified entity.  Experience IS movement and the various ways of
>>> describing this "sensed" movement withIN the world as disoriented
>>> shattered
>>> movement that is directionless [with the center not holding]  is not a
>>> "description OF" an experience.  It  IS the experience.  I'm using words
>>> to
>>>  try to capture this movement of IMPOSSIBILITY.  Getting distance and
>>> reflection on THIS impossibility  leaves one reflecting on THIS
>>> impossibility of the LOSS of one's spouse. Impossibility reflected on is
>>> still impossibility.
>>>
>>> Vasilyk suggests the path through this impossibility [as actual
>>> impossibility] is a work of "repair" , a work of "restoration" proceeding
>>> at
>>> right angles to the line of actualization of life. I ask, Whose line?. Do
>>> we
>>> need to "return" by restoring the previous line of actualization?  Often
>>> the
>>> answer is to return and find our previous bearings. But this previous
>>> line
>>> may become an impossibility to return to. There may be no restoration of
>>> the
>>> previous center. What then? There is still movement but AIMLESS movement
>>> with empty sign-containers. This movement has adverbial qualities such as
>>> despairing movement, hopeless movement, reflective movement of
>>> impossibility.  But no return to the "normative" bearings that previously
>>> gave life purpose and direction as "self-regulated psychological systems"
>>> No
>>> return to an ethical life of shared semiotics.  No return to a "center"
>>> of
>>> coherence.
>>>
>>> What I'm describing is a shattering perezhivanie of lived experiencing,
>>> of
>>> lived movement.  The return to the self at these moments is a return to
>>> impossibility.
>>>
>>> Is there anywhere else to turn at these moments?  I would suggest what is
>>> required at moments of shattering impossibility is "holding environments"
>>> where there is recognition of the shattering impossibility of
>>> perezhivanie.
>>> The term "witnessing" captures the particular form of recognition I'm
>>> pointing to. Witnessing as a recognition of the intersubjective "calling"
>>> of
>>> the suffering impossibility of the other and the response to that
>>> calling.
>>> Witnessing as engagement NOT reflective conceptualization OF the
>>> suffering
>>> impossibility.  Witnessing as living through with the other the
>>> impossible
>>> suffering  with no hope of transformation. This is NOT empathy or shared
>>> feeling as identity with the other. The ethical premise I'm pointing to
>>> is
>>> that this witnessing as an agentive act of being with suffering IS the
>>> movement of reengagement not as transformation or catharsis but being
>>> with
>>> suffering impossibility. The other as witness is a particular form of
>>> agentive action with a particular qualified movement. [not a qualia or
>>> entified essence] This witnessing has a particular  ethical perspective
>>> that
>>> I believe requires "maturity" and is a "skill" [Merleau-Ponty] that is
>>> "possibly" acquired if one has previously been met in their suffering
>>> despair.
>>>
>>> Where we turn in our suffering is representative of the  ethical
>>> normatively
>>> in*formed knowledgeability [not info*mation] in our ways of life.  The
>>> knowledgeability that assumes we must turn towards our inscapes in a
>>> search
>>> to return to our previous lines of actualization represents a particular
>>> way
>>> of life.  A way of life centered on the centering and decentering of the
>>> encapsulated self. Self-regulation within particular "systems" of ethical
>>> normative movements of perezhivanie.  INscapes not landscapes as places
>>> to
>>> find ones bearings.  If you make it to the other side of this inscape and
>>> re-engage in restored repaired lines of actualization you will be
>>> CONFIRMED
>>> in your validation of self-regulation within systems as ways of life.
>>> However not every person navigates the suffering impossibility by
>>> restoring
>>> previous forms of self-regulated systems of personality [with a restored
>>> center]  There are other constellations of personality not so centered on
>>> inscapes but rather on intersubjective commitments of creating "holding
>>> environments" where suffering impossibility is met by the  witnessing
>>> other
>>> who participates in the suffering impossibility and "contains" or
>>> "collects"
>>> the other in the witnessing encounter.  THIS  particular form of
>>> "meeting"
>>> may in time be transformative in shifting the suffering impossibility.
>>>
>>> Mike, exploring suffering perezhivanie as movement of e*motion and where
>>> we
>>> turn  [or where we are met] in our suffering, crystallizes different
>>> notions
>>> of experiencing .  Merleau-Ponty, Ingold, Shotter pointing at perception
>>> and
>>> conception as skills of orientation developed within social interactions,
>>> as
>>> ways of normative life, is a tradition with potential. Suffering
>>> impossibility, within this perspective should be "met" not "overcome" or
>>> "undergone"
>>>
>>> Larry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 6:53 PM, Michael Levykh <mlevykh@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Refusal to confront, Andy, is already a step away from the ACTUAL
>>>> experience
>>>> in the past.
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________**_________
>>>>
>>>> Dr. Michael G. Levykh, Ph.D.
>>>> Therapist & Educational Psychologist
>>>> www.affectivetherapy.com
>>>> http://about.me/michaelglevykh
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "How we nurture our social emotions is what makes us who we are."
>>>>
>>>> ~ M. G. Levykh
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.**ucsd.edu<xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>]
>>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of Andy Blunden
>>>> Sent: October-01-11 6:41 PM
>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>>  Subject: Re: [xmca] varying definitions of perezhivanie
>>>>
>>>> Isn't it the case, Michael, that a peerezhivanie has to be followed by a
>>>> catharsis in order to foster a development? The war veteran who refuses
>>>> to confront the traumatic experience they had in the war, kind of fails
>>>> to make the development which the lived experience they shared gives
>>>> them the possibility for.
>>>>
>>>> Michael Levykh wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Mike,
>>>>>
>>>>> perezhivaniye, in my interpretation of Vygotsky, is the ability, when
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> being
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> in the moments of crisis, to step away from the immediate experience:
>>>>> "In
>>>>> order to explain and understand experience, it is necessary to go
>>>>> beyond
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> its
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> limits; it is necessary to forget about it for a minute and move away
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> from
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> it" (Vygotsky, 1999, p. 243). Feeling good is the ideal result for an
>>>>> individual who is able to step away from his immediate struggle with
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> social
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> demands, reflect on his/her past experience, and contemplate
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> (extrapolate)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> his/her future experiences.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael
>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________**_________
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dr. Michael G. Levykh, Ph.D.
>>>>>
>>>>> Therapist & Educational Psychologist
>>>>>
>>>>> www.affectivetherapy.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> <
>>>> http://email.about.me/wf/**click?c=**e86tqVWFYsEogZdu8cwmbnGfDLgcCO**
>>>> 7Yb6%2Fms%2F<http://email.about.me/wf/click?c=e86tqVWFYsEogZdu8cwmbnGfDLgcCO7Yb6%2Fms%2F>
>>>>   w5hSbigpUHIH%2B3q%2FJ6rl44%**2F7kv&rp=kkuZYPlTP6K8%**
>>>> 2BlaQBcUVvhUiY0sq8vL6S2PHrN
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> %2B%2FLwtoGfL%2FI%**2FIYjajJunJ9DkZu&u=**XTSF8JjpQReWbaUoYNTI-A%2Fh0>
>>>>> http://about.me/michaelglevykh
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "How we nurture our social emotions is what makes us who we are."
>>>>>
>>>>> ~ M. G. Levykh
>>>>>
>>>>>  _____
>>>>>
>>>>> From: mike cole [mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com]
>>>>> Sent: October-01-11 4:16 PM
>>>>> To: Michael Levykh
>>>>> Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] varying definitions of perezhivanie
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> OK, everyone is far away from being an expert.
>>>>> But........
>>>>>
>>>>> How do you respond to the notion of "Self-regulated psychological
>>>>> system
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> of
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> personality" as a synonym for perezhivanie and the discussion of
>>>>> similar
>>>>> terms
>>>>> in German and Spanish?
>>>>>
>>>>> I find it interesting that Vasiliuk argues that perezhivanie is a
>>>>> special
>>>>> kind of experience of "activity on oneself" in moments of crisis. The
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> whole
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> idea of "individual activity" is a constant source of confusion for me,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> but
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> confronted with an example of a person's mate dying as the medium for
>>>>> discussion of perezhivanie makes me stop and think.
>>>>> mike
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 4:04 PM, Michael Levykh <mlevykh@shaw.ca>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you, Mike. But I am far from being an expert. As for the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> discussion,
>>>> I
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> have been only passively following on and off this one.
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael
>>>>>
>>>>>  _____
>>>>>
>>>>> From: mike cole [mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com]
>>>>> Sent: October-01-11 3:57 PM
>>>>> To: Michael Levykh
>>>>> Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] varying definitions of perezhivanie
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Good to have an expert involved, Michael.
>>>>> What is your interpretation of the recent discussion of this issue?
>>>>> mike
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 3:27 PM, Michael Levykh <mlevykh@shaw.ca>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope the following paragraph from my 2008 PhD Theses might shed a bit
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> more
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> light on your discussion:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Vasilyuk (1984) writes in his annotation to Psikhologia Perezhivaniya
>>>>> (Psychology of Perezhivaniye), that in order to manage (perezhits)
>>>>> "situations of stress, frustration, inner conflict, and life crisis,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> quite
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> often a painful inner work has to be done in re-establishing inner
>>>>> equilibrium and reconstructing a new meaningful life" (para. 1, my
>>>>> translation). For him, even a painful experience in the past can be
>>>>> recreated as a positive, pleasurable, meaningful future-oriented
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> experience
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> of personality. Hence, perezhivaniye is a future-oriented, conscious,
>>>>> and
>>>>> individual emotional experience of past events achieved in the
>>>>> "here-and-now" through reflection on the individual's struggle within
>>>>> himself/herself (e.g., as if struggling between the dual consciousness
>>>>> of
>>>>> self and the character he/she portrays) and with the social environment
>>>>> (e.g., his/her audience). Although perezhivaniye connotes mostly
>>>>> negative
>>>>> (painful) experience of the past, its future-orientedness provides
>>>>> possibilities for positive outcomes. Such positive possibilities are
>>>>> also
>>>>> reflected in Vygotsky's optimistic views on cultural development in
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> general.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Michael Levykh
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.**
>>>>> ucsd.edu <xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> On
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Behalf Of mike cole
>>>>> Sent: October-01-11 2:53 PM
>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity
>>>>> Subject: [xmca] varying definitions of perezhivanie
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Below are two snippets from Vasiliuk's book which have informed my,
>>>>>
>>>>> still forming, understanding (s) of perezhivanie as used by Russians.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Its from Vasiliuk's book, The psych of experiencing. There is a ton to
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> book of interest but
>>>>>
>>>>> these citations bring out a feature of perezhivanie that is not evident
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> in
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> "lived through experience"
>>>>>
>>>>> nor even in "a mixture of emotion and cognition" versions.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This book is written within a dialogue with activity theory.
>>>>> perezhivanie
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> is
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> translated as experiencing.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> mike
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But in this real world, in life, situations exist where the main
>>>>> problem
>>>>>
>>>>> cannot be solved either by practical activity, even the best-equipped,
>>>>> or
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> by
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> the most highly accurate reflection of that problem in the mind. If a
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> person
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> is threatened by danger he can try to save himself by running away, but
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> as
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> R. Peters writes, "if a man is overcome by grief because his wife is
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> dead,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> what can be done of a specific sort to remedy *that *situation?"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> . when we speak of "generating meaning" what we have in mind is a
>>>>>
>>>>> special *activity
>>>>>
>>>>> on the part of the individual*. 7
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The specifics of this activity are determined by the peculiarities of
>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>> situations which put the individual under the necessity of
>>>>> experiencing.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> We
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> shall refer to these as critical situations. If one had to use one word
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> only
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> to define the nature of such situations one would have to say that they
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> are
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> situations of impossibility. Impossibility of what? Impossibility of
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> living,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> of realising the internal necessities of life.
>>>>>
>>>>> The struggle against that impossibility, the struggle to realise
>>>>> internal
>>>>>
>>>>> necessities - that is experiencing. Experiencing is the repair of a
>>>>>
>>>>> "disruption" of life, a work of restoration, proceed-ing as it were at
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> right
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> angles to the line of actualisation of life.
>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________**____________
>>>>>
>>>>> _____
>>>>>
>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>
>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>
>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________**____________
>>>>> _____
>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
>>>> ------------
>>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>>> Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/**toc/hmca20/18/1<http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1>
>>>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>>>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.**aspx?partid=227&pid=34857<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________**____________
>>>> _____
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________**____________
>>>> _____
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>>>>
>>>>
>>> ______________________________**____________
>>> _____
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
>> ------------
>> *Andy Blunden*
>> Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/**toc/hmca20/18/1<http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1>
>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.**aspx?partid=227&pid=34857<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
>>
>> ______________________________**____________
>> _____
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>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
> ------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/**toc/hmca20/18/1<http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1>
> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.**aspx?partid=227&pid=34857<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
>
> ______________________________**____________
> _____
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