Re: [xmca] zpd zbr zedpd and zoped

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

Correct, Rod. The assymetries in the system are critical to development.
mike

On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 1:43 AM, Rod Parker-Rees <
R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote:

> But Mike's ironic point also highlights the fact that our experience before
> birth (and immediately after in most parts of the world and for most of
> history) has been an undifferentiated 'we' (the Ur we or "Primordial-We").
> While the infant may have no independent experience of being treated as an
> independent person the mother has and this is available to the 'we' one too.
>
> All the best,
>
> Rod
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> Behalf Of Andy Blunden
> Sent: 16 November 2010 00:01
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: Re: [xmca] zpd zbr zedpd and zoped
>
> Ah! Apologies. I hadn't noticed that "Mike's ironic point" was off line.
> The irony was "Why not just withhold 'support' from birth, Andy?"
> Andy
> Andy Blunden wrote:
> > Before you can "perform who you are not yet," i.e., an independent
> > person, others have to treat you as an independent person. I take
> > Mike's ironic point, that /prior to/ that one must have some
> > opportunity to know how an independent person acts, but so long as you
> > are treated as someone who need help ...
> >
> > Andy
> >
> > Helen Grimmett (Education) wrote:
> >> Interesting angle Andy! I suppose it depends on the view of learning
> >> and development you are taking. I came to the zpd via the work of
> >> Rogoff and Lave & Wenger so came to view learning as transformation
> >> of participation in cultural activities. Then I came to Lois
> >> Holzman's work and take the definition of development as the activity
> >> of creating who you are by performing who you are not yet. In my
> >> understanding of these views, learning and development is only
> >> possible with the support of others, by participating in the
> >> activities of (and with) others. I have never thought about the
> >> relevance of the withdrawal of support - I'll have to ponder on that
> >> for a while to see how (or if) it fits in my schema!
> >>
> >> Interested to hear what others think,
> >> Helen
> >>
> >> On 16 November 2010 01:47, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
> >> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
> >>
> >>     Mike, for whatever reason, zoped has never been a concept which
> >>     figured very largely in my thinking.
> >>
> >>     Apart from my interest in understanding social change and
> >>     zeitgeist my practical interest in Vygotsky's ideas has been in
> >>     relation to practical activity with mature adults, mostly where
> >>     the learner is not so much a person, but a group of adults, such
> >>     as a union branch or suchlike. But I have also developed an
> >>     interest in disability support.
> >>
> >>     In both these cases, it has always seemed to me that it is the
> >>     withdrawal of support which facilitates development, not the
> >>     provision of support. Of course, the very act of withdrawal of
> >>     support is itself assisting the "learner" in making the
> >>     development. Withdrawing support is a variety of support.
> >>
> >>     Does this fit into the general schema of theorising with zoped?
> >>
> >>     Andy
> >>
> >>
> >>     mike cole wrote:
> >>
> >>         Armando.
> >>         It seems to me that people can use any term they like in
> >>         seeking to index
> >>         the processes they believe
> >>         to be indicated by Vygotsky. Proximal in English refers to
> >>         both time and
> >>         space. In Spanish also, I believe as in:
> >>         Hasta la semaina *proxima.*
> >>
> >>         I was simply providing an explanation for my coinage.
> >>
> >>         mike
> >>         On Sat, Nov 13, 2010 at 4:52 AM, Armando Perez Yera
> >>         <armandop@uclv.edu.cu <mailto:armandop@uclv.edu.cu>>wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>             Mike:
> >>             Why we do not work ZPD as zone of potencial development.
> >>             ZPD as zone of
> >>             proximal development taste as space dimension, Potencial
> >>             development taste
> >>             as time. Also Zone of colective potencial development
> >>             taste as SSD (Social
> >>             situation of development) And nbot anly as cognitive
> >>             proce3ss but as process
> >>             of development of pertsonality.
> >>             Only some ideas.
> >>             Armando
> >>
> >>             ________________________________________
> >>             From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>             <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>             [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>             <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>] On Behalf
> >>             Of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com
> >> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>]
> >>             Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 8:23 PM
> >>             To: eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity
> >>             Subject: [xmca] zpd zbr zedpd and zoped
> >>
> >>             I am answering David's question about "why zoped." I did
> >>             not include it in
> >>             my talk because I am uncertain of the audience's national
> >>             backgrounds and was assuming "mixed but mostly Russian
> >>             speakers". The talk
> >>             was supposed to be about 20 minutes long and I was
> >>             uncertain of the time. And I was also mindful of the fact
> >>             that on Tuesday
> >>             following its showing at the Vygotsky readings, I will be
> >>             discussing the
> >>             issues raised, and whatever people feel like talk about
> >>             via skype,
> >>             sooooooo.
> >>
> >>             As many know, when i organize obrazovanie, I like to mix
> >>             serious stuff with
> >>             play. Also, I have a long term interest in the the
> >>             enculturation
> >>             practices and processes of peoples for whom literacy has
> >>             not been a central
> >>             part of enculturation until, perhaps, recent times. And, I
> >>             enjoy
> >>             participating in the forms of activity that emerge when
> >>             zopeds are created
> >>             as a part of our research and educational practices.
> >>
> >>             With that context (add or subtract to taste) the notion of
> >>             a zoped came
> >>             from
> >>             two sources. First of all, it IS easier to say! :-)
> >>             Secondly, it involves forms of pedagogy -- arranging for
> >>             the young to
> >>             acquire valued skills, knowledge, belief, behaviors, etc --
> >>             Third, when it works, it seems like "something happened,"
> >>             a qualitative
> >>             field that sometimes can be like flow, sometimes can be
> >>             triggered by timely juxtapositions, montage-like. And it
> >>             seems to lead to a
> >>             more inclusive, more integrated way of relating to the
> >>             world at least
> >>             in that setting. Whatever this "something" is, it has a
> >>             magical quality to
> >>             it.
> >>
> >>             In Liberia when and where I pretended to work once upon a
> >>             time the most
> >>             respected, revered, and feared members of the community were
> >>             shamen, a concept referred to in Liberia at the time
> >>             (across language
> >>             groups, so far as I could tell) as a Zo, what popular
> >>             culture refers to
> >>             as "witch doctors." They were THE teachers. But they
> >>             worked through magic.
> >>
> >>             That about sums up my idea of the zone of proximal
> >>             development. It requires
> >>             sage pedagogy and a touch of magic. When those are combined,
> >>             they, of course, constitute a zo-ped.
> >>
> >>             I personally recommend spending time in such third spaces.
> >>             :-))
> >>             mike
> >>             __________________________________________
> >>             _____
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> >>             xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>             http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>
> >>             Universidad Central "Marta Abreu" de Las Villas.
> >>             http://www.uclv.edu.cu
> >>
> >>             Universidad Central "Marta Abreu" de Las Villas.
> >>             http://www.uclv.edu.cu
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>         __________________________________________
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>     --
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>     *Andy Blunden*
> >>     Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/<http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> >> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
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> >>
> >>
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> >>
> >>
> >
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> Videos: http://vimeo.com/user3478333/videos
> Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
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>
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