For those interested in translations of TS, the attached reviews by Van der Veer are very interesting, I think. You need to scroll down to p. 83 for the review on one of them. p -----Original Message----- From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Wagner Schmit Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 9:46 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [xmca] The Missing Part What about the Spanish versions? Anyone has some comments about it? In Brazil we have "two" Portuguese versions of Thinking and Speech: one called "Pensamento e Linguagem" (Thinking and Speech =P) and another called "Construção do Pensamento e Linguagem" (Construction of Thinking and Speech). The first one is a translation of the 1962 Hanfmann-Kasanin translation, and it really is half the size of the other that is a direct translation from Russian (don't know wich russin source since the book is in the research group library and not here with me now). The first translation was published in 1987 (there may be older translations by other publishers) and the translation direct from russian was published in 2001. It is a shame my grandmother died before i could have learned russian with her =/ Wagner Luiz Schmit On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 9:28 AM, ulvi icil <ulvi.icil@gmail.com> wrote: > Thanks David ! > > > > > > 2010/7/12, David Kellogg <vaughndogblack@yahoo.com>: > > > > Ulvi: > > > > Yes, it is missing from the Collected Works version. The Collected > > Works edition is based on the 1956-1982 Russian editions. There were > > many cuts made in 1956 and not all of them were repaired in 1982. > > These cuts are > not > > noted and the only way to find them is to go through the 1934 and > > the > > 1956-1982 two versions paragraph by paragraph, which is what we've > > been doing for three years now for our Korean translation. > > > > Kozulin is the only person who makes any part of the 1934 edition > available > > in English. But the problem with Kozulin is that he was only > > supposed to update--not rewrite--the 1962 Hanfmann-Kasanin > > translation which, most people will agree, is not a translation so > > much as a selective paraphrase (it was HALF the length of the > > original book). That means that although > the > > Kozulin book includes extremely well translated passages of the 1934 > > material (and priceless footnotes and a great intro) the main body > > of the text is a pale copy of Thinking and Speech. > > > > I have to agree with Rene van der Veer and Luciano Meccaci: the 1934 > > edition was virtually complete when Vygotsky died, and this is > > therefore > the > > only canonical edition. No adequate translation of this edition into > English > > exists. Therefore, we have no authoritative edition of Thinking and > Speech. > > > > If (like me) you cannot read and understand it well enough in > > Russian, my advice is to read it in French (but this is still the > > 1982 edition) or Italian (the 1934 edition in all its glory, with > > only a very few minor errors!). Or you could learn Korean! > > > > David Kellogg > > Seoul National University of Education > > > > --- On Mon, 7/12/10, ulvi icil <ulvi.icil@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > From: ulvi icil <ulvi.icil@gmail.com> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] The Missing Part > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> > > Date: Monday, July 12, 2010, 12:53 AM > > > > > > David, > > Is this part missing also in Col. Works edition? > > Ulvi > > > > > > > > 2010/7/12, David Kellogg <vaughndogblack@yahoo.com>: > > > > > > This is the beginning of Chapter Two of Thinking and Speech that > > > was > not > > > translated into English. I posted it once several years ago, and > > > Anton thought it didn't add very much. > > > > > > I think it does: it structures the whole chapter, because it makes > > > it > > clear > > > that Freud, Levy-Bruhl, and Blondel share a common idealist basis > > > as > well > > as > > > a common canonical stature. > > > > > > ≪Мы полагаем, . говорит он, . что настанет день, когда мысль > > > ребенка > > по > > > отношению к мысли нормального цивилизованного взрослого будет > > > помещена > в > > ту > > > же плоскость, в какой находится ≪примитивное мышление≫, > > охарактеризованное > > > Леви-Брюлем, или аутистическая и символическая мысль, описанная > > > Фрейдом > и > > > его учениками, или ≪болезненное сознание≫, если только это > понятие, > > > введенное Блонделем, не сольется в один прекрасный день с > > > предыдущим понятием≫ (1, с.408).1 Действительно, появление его > > > первых работ по историческому значению этого факта для дальнейшего > > > развития психологической мысли должно быть > по > > > справедливости сопоставлено и сравнено с датами выхода в свет > > > ≪Les > > fonctions > > > mentales dans les societes inferieures≫ Леви-Брюля, > > > ≪Толкования > > сновидений≫ > > > Фрейда или ≪La conscience morbide≫ Блонделя. Больше того, > > > между > > этими > > > явлениями в различнейших областях научной психологии есть не > > > только > > внешнее > > > сходство, определяемое уровнем их исторического значения, но > > > глубокое, кровное, внутреннее родство . связь по самой сути > > > заключенных и > > воплощенных > > > в них философских и > > > психологических тенденций. Недаром сам Пиаже в огромной мере > > > опирался в своих исследованиях и построениях на эти три работы и > > > на их авторов. > > > > > > > > > “It is therefore our belief", says (Piaget), "that the day will > > > come > when > > > child thought will be placed on the same level in relation to > > > adult, > > normal, > > > and civilized thought as ‘primitive mentality’, as defined by > Lévy-Bruhl, > > as > > > autistic and symbolical thought as described by Freud and his > > > disciples > > and > > > as ‘morbid consciousness,’ assuming that this last concept, which > > > we > owe > > to > > > M. Ch. Blondel, is not simply fused with the former.” (p. > > > 201-202). In reality, the appearance of this first works, in > > > regard to the historic importance as a fact for future reference > > > in the development of psychological thought must be on the > > > compared with the appearance of > “Les > > > fonctions mentales dans les societes inferieures” of Levi- Bruhl, > Freud’s > > > “The interpretation of dreams’, or Blondel’s “La conscience morbide”. > It > > is > > > not simply that between these phenomena in the development of the > > > field > > of > > > scientific psychology there is a formal resemblance, determined by > > > their level of historic importance, but that there is a deep, > > > internal kinship, a connection in essence which is > > visible > > > in their philosophical and psychological tendencies. Not without > > > reason > > does > > > Piaget himself base in enormous measure his own studies and > constructions > > on > > > these three works and on their authors. > > > > > > Last night I was re-reading Bleuler's criticisms of Freud in > > > "Autistic Thinking" and I also came upon these words, which > > > Vygotsky quotes approvingly. > > > > > > "Examining the more grown-up child, I also do not much observe > > > that he would prefer the imaginary apple to the real. The imbecile > > > and the > savage > > > are alike practitioners of Realpolitik and the latter, (exactly > > > like > us, > > who > > > stand at the apex of cognitive ability) makes his autistic > > > stupidities > > only > > > in such cases when reason and experience prove insufficient: in > > > his > ideas > > > about the universe, about the phenomena of nature, in his > > > understanding > > of > > > diseases and other blows of destiny, in adopting measures to > > > shield > > himself > > > from them, and in other relationships which are too complex for him.” > > > > > > It seems to me that here and elsewhere in this chapter Bleuler is > arguing > > > for, and Vygotsky is agreeing with, a position that is > > > simultaneously universalist, relativist, and developmentalist. It > > > is universalist in > the > > > sense that it argues for a universal human autistic response to > > > areas > of > > > experience of which we are ignorant. It is relativist in the sense > > > that > > it > > > argues for the independence of an "autistic" response from > > > rationality > > and > > > an autonomous art and autonomous humanities based on that > > > independence > > that > > > is in no way subordinate to rationality. It is developmentalist in > > > the > > sense > > > that it argues for an autistic response which develops out of a > > > narrow, immediately realistic (perception based?) reality function > > > rather than > > vice > > > versa (as in Freud, Janet, and Levy-Bruhl). > > > > > > David Kellogg > > > Seoul National University of Education > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > xmca mailing list > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca > > > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > xmca mailing list > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > xmca mailing list > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca > > > > _______________________________________________ > xmca mailing list > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca > >
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