Re: [xmca] perception/conception etc

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

OOOps, definition 1 did not get in my cut and past. I have put it in place
in red.

On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 2:46 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:

> David-
>
> I was educated so long ago and so narrowly that sensation/perception/ were
> the categories used. It was difficult to include "thinking" or "cognition"
> in  academic discussions of relevant phenomena because those concepts were
> off the board and for sure, development=learning.
>
> Here is what I got from the oxford english dictionary on percept. Is this
> useful to think with about your distinctions!
>


> 1. Object of perception
> *a1856* W. HAMILTON<http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-h.html#w-hamilton>
> *Lect. Metaphysics* (1860) III. iii. 42 Whether it might not..be proper to
> introduce the term percept for the object of perception.
> *1880* *19th Cent.* Feb. 355 In any act of perception the matter that is
> percept or object is commonly outside the organism of the percipient. *
> 1909* *Mind* *18* 368 Each object of perception, or each percept..is as
> such unitary, exclusive, and unchanging. *1964* M. CRITCHLEY<http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-c4.html#m-critchley>
> *Developmental Dyslexia* xiii. 78 Not only is it a matter of defective
> perception, but it is also one of inadequate association of lexical
> percepts. *1988* *Brit. Jrnl. Philos. Sci.* *39* 378 It may even be that
> the percepts detected by one sense organ are experienced as having the
> modality standardly associated with another.
>
>     *2.* The mental product or result of perceiving something (as
> distinguished from the action); a way in which something is perceived
> mentally.
> *1864* F. C. BOWEN<http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-b3.html#f-c-bowen>
> *Treat. Logic* 11 A Percept or Intuition is a single representation..a
> Concept is a collective (general or universal) representation of a whole
> class of things. *1876* H. MAUDSLEY<http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-m2.html#h-maudsley>
> *Physiol. of Mind* v. 273 A percept is the abstract of sensations, so a
> concept is the abstract of percepts. *1899* T. C. ALLBUTT<http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-a.html#t-c-allbutt>et al.
> *Syst. Med.* VII. 399 Word-images as integral components of percepts and
> concepts. *1949* *Mind* *58* 450 William James sometimes used the word
> ‘percept’ to refer to the content of consciousness during perception. *
> 1976* *Word 1971* *27* 226 Each physical stimulus, after interpretation by
> the mental processes, will result in a percept. *1995* F. DRETSKE in R.
> Audi *Cambr. Dict. Philos.* 570/1 This subjective, directly apprehended
> object has been called by various names: a sensation, percept, sense-datum,
> sensum, and sometimes..*Vorstellung*.
>
>
> I have recently read LSV on the  Bororo where he clearly states that the
> law of participation is thinking in complexes, and in that sense, clearly
> did not agree with
> Levy-Bruhl. But contemporary accounts of Levy-Bruhl appear to conclude that
> Levy-Bruhl did not agree with Levy-Bruhl! To the extent that LSV signs on
> to Werner's orthogenetic principle, to the extent that Luria claims that
> Uzbeki peasants are unable to think theoretically, there are going to be
> controversies.
>
> I have to take some time and go re-read the parts of LSV you point to. If
> there is something missing in what we have access to, could you send?
>
> What do others think?
> mike
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 2:21 PM, David Kellogg <vaughndogblack@yahoo.com>wrote:
>
>>  Well, the following propositions seem pretty clear to me, but I think at
>> least some of them are things that Mike would dispute, and since Mike has a
>> way of seeing stuff that goes right under my nose, I would really like to
>> know which ones.
>>
>> a) Percepts are constructions (of course, socioculturally generated) that
>> individual minds put on perception. They are therefore representational
>> generalizations and not abstractions of ideal relationships.
>>
>> b) Concepts are constructions (of course, stored and used by individual
>> minds) that sociocultural groups put on idealized relationships. They are
>> therefore abstractions and not simply generalizations of percepts.
>>
>> c) Everyday concepts, therefore, are not percepts. The word "family" and
>> the word "furniture" are certainly indicative of meaning-meaning
>> relationships; they are not labels for perceived objects in the visual
>> field. They are, therefore, not percepts, but concepts, and they are true
>> concepts.
>>
>> d) Everyday concepts are not science concepts. They differ from science
>> concepts genetically (because they are generated through everyday experience
>> rather than in laboratories and classrooms) functionally (because they are
>> designed to facilitate everyday life and not academic gatekeeping or the
>> pursuit of scientific knowledge) and structurally (because they are less
>> volitional, less controllable, less decontextualizeable and less susceptible
>> to analysis and recombination as part of a system).
>>
>> e) However, because science concepts can be analyzed and recombined, they
>> can be used to refer to percepts. Names of stars and planets are examples.
>> It is in this sense that the system of science concepts is both more
>> powerful and more precise than that of everyday concepts. On the one hand,
>> the system of science concepts can reveal hidden truths through
>> abstraction,and on the other it can also do what everyday concepts and
>> percepts do with even greater differentiation, selectivity, and precision.
>>
>> The power and precision of science concepts It is like a language that can
>> refer to and differentiate the concept of spiciness in food both lexically
>> and grammatically (as well as in extended discourse) vs. a more primitive
>> language like English which can refer to spicy food grammatically ("This
>> food tastes hot like Mexican food, not hot like hot cocoa") but not
>> lexically (there is no specific word for spiciness in food in English).
>>
>> But the greater power and precision of science concepts is not in any
>> important sense social, racial or cultural superiority. To say that is to
>> mix up the gate-keeping function that academia has with its truth-seeking
>> function. Vygotsky of all people on earth was probably the least inclined to
>> do this. (Part of being Jewish is learning that you can be really good at
>> school and still treated like a schlump.)
>>
>> When we read the first paragraph of the first section of Chapter Two of
>> Thinking in Speech in Russian, we find a section, omitted in 1956 and 1982
>> and consequently missing from all English translations of the work, which
>> says that the work of Piaget is comparable to that of Freud, Blondel, and
>> Levy-Bruhl in historical importance, but ALSO in its idealism and its
>> misguided methodology. Vygotsky returns to this general criticism, and
>> specifically to his criticism of Levy-Bruhl's ideas about participation, in
>> several places.
>>
>> One beef he has with all three is precisely the association between the
>> thinking of the child and the thinking of the so-called  "primitive". He
>> reminds us of Rousseau's words: the child is not a small adult and his mind
>> is not a small adult mind.  He shows that the famous example of the Bororo
>> who call themselves parrots is based on a hypothetical connection with a
>> larger unseen group (which is a complex rather than a concept only because
>> it does not involve an objective scientific law) and there is no
>> "participation" involved. Hutchins' work on the land dispute in the
>> Trobriand Islands works in essentially the same way.
>>
>> So why is it so often believed that Vygotsky believed that Vygotsky places
>> children, primitives, and apes in a single unseen group of primitive
>> thinkers? David Bakhurst tackles this question beautifully (for me,
>> definitively) in his essay on Vygotsky's demons in the Cambridge Companion.
>> He points out that like many places in Vygotsky's thinking there IS an
>> ambiguity to exploit here.
>>
>> There IS a tendency to put percepts, spontaneous concepts, and everyday
>> concepts in one undifferentiated heap and concepts, true concepts and
>> science concepts in another. It even extends to the translation of the word,
>> which Prout renders as "academic" or "taught" or "instructed" concept rather
>> than "science concept".
>>
>> It seems to me that one possible explanation is that Luria himself, as a
>> result of his experience in Uzbekistan ("The Uzbek's have no illusions!")
>> and his general openess to Freudian influences (NOT shared by Vygotsky, as
>> we know) might have been responsible for some of this ambiguity. I know that
>> I sometimes find myself putting my name to things that I don't entirely
>> believe for the sake of dear and trusted colleagues who believe them, and I
>> can easily imagine Vygotsky doing the same.
>>
>> But that does not really explain why this ambiguity was so ruthlessly
>> exploited by Vygotsky's enemies to suppress his work. I think here the
>> answer might lie in the circumstance that I pointed to before; the pressure
>> on Vygotsky to abjure his former work on complexes and to introduce the
>> scientific concept earlier and earlier in education. It is, I believe, this
>> untimely pressure that ultimately led him to formulate the zone of proximal
>> development.
>>
>> However, it also had the unfortunate effect of introducing a
>> differentiation between the science concept and the everyday concept that is
>> too strict, too firm, too rigorous and too impermeable: in other words, a
>> differentiation that was too similar to that between concepts and percepts.
>> And it would be just like the Stalinist s to pressure Vygotsky to go down
>> that path and then to condemn him for what they thought he must have been
>> thinking because it was precisely what they were thinking.
>>
>> David Kellogg
>> Seoul National University of Education.
>>
>>
>> --- On *Thu, 7/8/10, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>* wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [xmca] perception/conception etc
>> To:
>> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> Date: Thursday, July 8, 2010, 9:49 AM
>>
>>
>> David-- Your note raises the interesting question of what percepts are or
>> could be, David. Thanks for helping me think about relation of those
>> images
>> to each other and chapters5-6 of T&S.
>> I am uncertain of the categorization of true concepts and how to
>> differentiate from scientific concepts a la LSV, Andy. Your suggestion
>> that
>> scientific concepts are a subclass of true concepts sounds reasonable, but
>> not sure if LSV made the distinction. David? Paula? Natalia?
>>
>> Glad you found the Hutchins interesting, Eric. I think I think that true
>> concepts in LSV's sense of the term are found in that example, sans
>> schooling. But perhaps not scientific one's unless we want to claim that
>> there is a theoretical jurisprudence involved, which there may well be.
>> Gotta read the full book to get to that I suppose.
>> mike
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:37 AM, <ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Mike:
>> >
>> > Thank you for the Hutchins piece.  It is definitely a fine example of
>> how
>> > researchers/observers can be confined by their cultural biases.  The
>> land
>> > dispute example that is illustrated in the piece provides an example of
>> a
>> > formal setting required to 'flesh' out the disagreement.  The 'everyday
>> > concept' of land us does not suffice for settling the land dispute and
>> > therefore a formal "scientific concept" of land use needed to be applied
>> by
>> > a council to settle the dispute.
>> >
>> > Now, to add another inquiry;  would it make more sense to
>> > discuss/compare/contrast "everyday perceptions" with "scientific
>> concepts"?
>> >
>> > For example, similar to the Hutchins piece, I may have land that is not
>> > divided from my neighbors by a fence and to access a portion of my land
>> > because of a natural barrier I have to drive onto my neighbors land for
>> a
>> > stretch.  My perception may be that this is o.k. because no dispute has
>> ever
>> > arisen due to my trespassing.  However a sale of the neighbor's land may
>> > bring into question my practice due to the new owner not liking my
>> > trespassing.  The "everyday perception" would be formally settled via
>> the
>> > "scientific concepts" of law.
>> >
>> >
>> > Finally the humidity has broken and all we have in minnesota is sunshine
>> > and daisies (well. . . maybe a few mosquitoes)
>> >
>> > eric
>> >
>> >
>> > From:        mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lchcmike@gmail.com>
>> >
>> > To:        "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> >
>> > Date:        07/07/2010 02:20 PM
>> > Subject:        [xmca] perception/conception etc
>> > Sent by:        xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi All-- I have changed the heading which has "chained" a good deal from
>> > the
>> > topic
>> > of the header.
>> >
>> > I did not "see" the concepts in either image, Andy, until I went back to
>> > them and somewhere
>> > in both cases were conversations with my wife. Everyone is temporarily
>> > abled
>> > and simultaneously disabled, all that changes in the mix.
>> >
>> > Those interested in pursuing the line of inquiry opened by eric might
>> enjoy
>> > this early article by Ed Hutchins from his work in Trobriand a while
>> back.
>> >
>> > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Histarch/fe79v1n2.PDF
>> > mike
>> >
>> > On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 10:38 AM, <ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org>>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hi Michael:
>> > >
>> > > thanks for the example
>> > >
>> > > Laurie Anderson is an experimental performance artist that began with
>> > > spoken word pieces performed to violin and electronic effects.  As she
>> > > progressed in her artistic career she put recording "on hold" in order
>> to
>> > > take singing and voice lessons. Had her artistic conceptions outgrown
>> her
>> > > physical abilities?  I don't believe so because since that time she
>> has
>> > > recorded numerous albums with exceptional voice quality.   The formal
>> > > training provided the "scientific concepts" that moved her beyond
>> being a
>> > > spoken word artist to an exceptional musician.  Scientific concepts do
>> > > indeed appear to be born of formal academia.
>> > >
>> > > eric
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > From:
>> > > "Michael Glassman" <MGlassman@ehe.osu.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=MGlassman@ehe.osu.edu>
>> >
>> > > To:
>> > > "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> >
>> > > Date:
>> > > 07/07/2010 12:01 PM
>> > > Subject:
>> > > RE: [xmca] comparing NewYorker images
>> > > Sent by:
>> > > xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Hi Eric,
>> > >
>> > > Actually been thinking about this in another context.  Here is my
>> view,
>> > >
>> > > A pipe blower teaches and apprentice to build a pipe, teaches him to
>> > build
>> > > the pipe in a step by step method, the apprentice memorizes each step,
>> > and
>> > > then recreates it in building his own pipe.  But that is all the
>> > > apprentice can do, build that one single pipe following the exact same
>> > > process.  I am thinking this would be at the level of a
>> pseudo-concept.
>> > >
>> > > A pipe blower teachers an apprentice how to blow a pipe.  The pipe
>> blower
>> > > goes through the steps but explains the intricacies of what each step
>> > > means and why it works towards the final product.  The apprentice is
>> able
>> > > to understand (appropriate?) each of these steps and use it to create
>> a
>> > > pipe, but also when the pipe blower wants to blow a different type of
>> > pipe
>> > > does not have to go through the same step by step process but move
>> > quickly
>> > > through the variations on the different steps.  The apprentice
>> > > understanding the meaning of the steps in the process understands
>> quickly
>> > > and gets better and more efficient at making different types of
>> pipes.  I
>> > > am thinking this would be everyday concepts.
>> > >
>> > > A pipe blower is teaching an apprentice how to blow a pipe.  The pipe
>> > > blower teaches the properties of how the material reacts to the flame,
>> > and
>> > > what a material like glass can and cannot do at different
>> temperatures.
>> > > The pipe blower actually concentrates on the properties of materials
>> more
>> > > than making a pipe, believing the making of the pipe may take a much
>> > > longer time, but the apprentice now has the freedom to experiment with
>> > not
>> > > only glass, but materials and heat and can branch off to make things
>> in
>> > > different ways.  I am thinking this would be scientific concepts.
>> > >
>> > > The problem is, with the pipe blower take the time to engage in the
>> > third,
>> > > even though in the long run it is better for the community.  Probably
>> > not,
>> > > and may even think of it as being detrimetal.  That is why this type
>> of
>> > > education needs to occur in formal schooling.
>> > >
>> > > Of course once formally schooled the apprentice actually needs to go
>> back
>> > > and learn how to make an actualy pipe - actually go back to the
>> concrete
>> > -
>> > > and that is what allows him to go forward in the context of this new,
>> > > abstract information.
>> > >
>> > > Michael
>> > >
>> > > ________________________________
>> > >
>> > > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>on behalf of
>> ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org>
>> > > Sent: Wed 7/7/2010 11:52 AM
>> > > To: lchcmike@gmail.com<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lchcmike@gmail.com>;
>> eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] comparing NewYorker images
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > perhaps this can be clarified perhaps not.
>> > >
>> > > When a tribal elder teaches an apprentice to build a blow pipe is that
>> > > conveying scientific concepts or is it conveying everyday concepts?
>> > >
>> > > In other words do scientific concepts only happen in a formal academic
>> > > setting?
>> > >
>> > > I can accept that everyday concepts grow out of perceptions rather
>> than
>> > > abstractions of thought.
>> > >
>> > > Perhaps that is my own muddled perception on things.  For if one views
>> > > life as being perfect than one can live a perfect life.
>> > >
>> > > eric
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > From:
>> > > mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lchcmike@gmail.com>
>> >
>> > > To:
>> > > ablunden@mira.net<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ablunden@mira.net>,
>> "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
>> > > <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> >
>> > > Date:
>> > > 07/07/2010 09:22 AM
>> > > Subject:
>> > > Re: [xmca] comparing NewYorker images
>> > > Sent by:
>> > > xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Yes indeed, beware empty abstractions, Andy!
>> > > And rise to the concrete if we can.
>> > > My major point in that note was that in moving between "levels" of
>> > > abstraction contained with the image, our perception, how we
>> > > "see" the constituents changes. Might this be akin to the dynamics
>> > between
>> > > scientific and everyday concepts, and/or between differently
>> configures
>> > > systems of higher psychological functions?
>> > > mike
>> > > On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:26 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ablunden@mira.net>>
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Well, we're all hanging out for the next issue of The New Yorker
>> now! I
>> > > > feel really "exposed" by this exercise. :) In both cases I failed to
>> > see
>> > > the
>> > > > cultural reference. I picked up the abstract-theoretical reference,
>> > > indeed
>> > > > I'd even already used No. 2 to illustrate "Gestalt", but still
>> failed
>> > to
>> > > see
>> > > > the real-world, cultural meaning. :( Once an abstract-thinker,
>> always
>> > an
>> > > > abstract thinker, no matter how many books you read.
>> > > >
>> > > > Andy
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > White, Phillip wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > >> Well, certainly, Mike, I thing that knowing the song "Love and
>> > > marriage,
>> > > >> love and marriage, go together like a horse and carriage. Dad would
>> > say
>> > > to
>> > > >> Mother, "You can't have one without the other."
>> > > >>
>> > > >> So, yes, two peas in a pod, a pair of shoes, and a pair of eyes.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Phillip
>> > > >> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>> > > >>
>> > > >> -----Original Message-----
>> > > >> From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lchcmike@gmail.com>
>> >
>> > > >> Sender: "xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>"
>> <xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> >
>> > > >> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 19:57:24 To: eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity<
>> > > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> >
>> > > >> Reply-To: "lchcmike@gmail.com<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lchcmike@gmail.com>"
>> <lchcmike@gmail.com<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lchcmike@gmail.com>>,
>> "eXtended Mind,
>> > > >> Culture,
>> > > >>        Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> >
>> > > >> Subject: [xmca] comparing NewYorker images
>> > > >>
>> > > >> I want to use the occasion of martin coming late to the second of
>> two
>> > > new
>> > > >> yorker covers we have
>> > > >> been disscussing, to talk about some interesting properties of each
>> > and
>> > > >> different approaches to their
>> > > >> interpretation (I have still to deal with local microgenises).
>> > > >>
>> > > >> What both images seem to have in common is that an overall concept
>> > > covers
>> > > >> all the examples. One you see the overall concept, you
>> > > >> perception/interpretation of the constituents changes. And, if you
>> are
>> > > >> working upward from the constituents, but still have not got "IT"
>> the
>> > > >> little
>> > > >> its do not "add up."
>> > > >>
>> > > >> So someone sees the two eyeball shaped almost green things as "two
>> > > green
>> > > >> dots." But after one takes
>> > > >> in the heart *near* the top, and then the two bells with what look
>> > like
>> > > >> ribbons, on may think (June=prominent
>> > > >> month for getting married, weddding bells...... and from there on,
>> > > there
>> > > >> are
>> > > >> functional relations among the parts and those functions have
>> changed
>> > > in
>> > > >> some cases where the function is difficult to discern, like those
>> > > >> two partly green eye shaped things. Now they become "two peas i a
>> pod"
>> > > and
>> > > >> you might notice that it is
>> > > >> kind of strange that they are only partly green.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> I am pretty sure this is what Paula and David were writing about in
>> a
>> > > more
>> > > >> consistent way.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> One thing I am pretty certain of. Getting "it" requires
>> voobrazhenie,
>> > > >> into-image-making, and the process of
>> > > >> voobrazhenie is path dependent.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> What would LSV think?
>> > > >> mike
>> > > >> _______________________________________________
>> > > >> xmca mailing list
>> > > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> > > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> > > >> _______________________________________________
>> > > >> xmca mailing list
>> > > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> > > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > > --
>> > > >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > > *Andy Blunden*
>> > > > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/<http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/><
>> http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/><
>> > http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/> <
>> > > http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/ <
>> > > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/> <
>> http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/> <
>> > http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/
>> > >> >
>> > > > Videos: http://vimeo.com/user3478333/videos
>> >
>> > > > Book: http://www.brill.nl/scss
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > xmca mailing list
>> > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> > > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > xmca mailing list
>> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > xmca mailing list
>> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > [attachment "winmail.dat" deleted by ERIC RAMBERG/spps]
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > xmca mailing list
>> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > xmca mailing list
>> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > xmca mailing list
>> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> >
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> xmca mailing list
>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>
>>
>>
>
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