Re: [xmca] perception/conception etc

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

David-- Your note raises the interesting question of what percepts are or
could be, David. Thanks for helping me think about relation of those images
to each other and chapters5-6 of T&S.
I am uncertain of the categorization of true concepts and how to
differentiate from scientific concepts a la LSV, Andy. Your suggestion that
scientific concepts are a subclass of true concepts sounds reasonable, but
not sure if LSV made the distinction. David? Paula? Natalia?

Glad you found the Hutchins interesting, Eric. I think I think that true
concepts in LSV's sense of the term are found in that example, sans
schooling. But perhaps not scientific one's unless we want to claim that
there is a theoretical jurisprudence involved, which there may well be.
Gotta read the full book to get to that I suppose.
mike

On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 9:37 AM, <ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org> wrote:

> Mike:
>
> Thank you for the Hutchins piece.  It is definitely a fine example of how
> researchers/observers can be confined by their cultural biases.  The land
> dispute example that is illustrated in the piece provides an example of a
> formal setting required to 'flesh' out the disagreement.  The 'everyday
> concept' of land us does not suffice for settling the land dispute and
> therefore a formal "scientific concept" of land use needed to be applied by
> a council to settle the dispute.
>
> Now, to add another inquiry;  would it make more sense to
> discuss/compare/contrast "everyday perceptions" with "scientific concepts"?
>
> For example, similar to the Hutchins piece, I may have land that is not
> divided from my neighbors by a fence and to access a portion of my land
> because of a natural barrier I have to drive onto my neighbors land for a
> stretch.  My perception may be that this is o.k. because no dispute has ever
> arisen due to my trespassing.  However a sale of the neighbor's land may
> bring into question my practice due to the new owner not liking my
> trespassing.  The "everyday perception" would be formally settled via the
> "scientific concepts" of law.
>
>
> Finally the humidity has broken and all we have in minnesota is sunshine
> and daisies (well. . . maybe a few mosquitoes)
>
> eric
>
>
> From:        mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> To:        "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> Date:        07/07/2010 02:20 PM
> Subject:        [xmca] perception/conception etc
> Sent by:        xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> Hi All-- I have changed the heading which has "chained" a good deal from
> the
> topic
> of the header.
>
> I did not "see" the concepts in either image, Andy, until I went back to
> them and somewhere
> in both cases were conversations with my wife. Everyone is temporarily
> abled
> and simultaneously disabled, all that changes in the mix.
>
> Those interested in pursuing the line of inquiry opened by eric might enjoy
> this early article by Ed Hutchins from his work in Trobriand a while back.
>
> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Histarch/fe79v1n2.PDF
> mike
>
> On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 10:38 AM, <ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org> wrote:
>
> > Hi Michael:
> >
> > thanks for the example
> >
> > Laurie Anderson is an experimental performance artist that began with
> > spoken word pieces performed to violin and electronic effects.  As she
> > progressed in her artistic career she put recording "on hold" in order to
> > take singing and voice lessons. Had her artistic conceptions outgrown her
> > physical abilities?  I don't believe so because since that time she has
> > recorded numerous albums with exceptional voice quality.   The formal
> > training provided the "scientific concepts" that moved her beyond being a
> > spoken word artist to an exceptional musician.  Scientific concepts do
> > indeed appear to be born of formal academia.
> >
> > eric
> >
> >
> >
> > From:
> > "Michael Glassman" <MGlassman@ehe.osu.edu>
> > To:
> > "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > Date:
> > 07/07/2010 12:01 PM
> > Subject:
> > RE: [xmca] comparing NewYorker images
> > Sent by:
> > xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Eric,
> >
> > Actually been thinking about this in another context.  Here is my view,
> >
> > A pipe blower teaches and apprentice to build a pipe, teaches him to
> build
> > the pipe in a step by step method, the apprentice memorizes each step,
> and
> > then recreates it in building his own pipe.  But that is all the
> > apprentice can do, build that one single pipe following the exact same
> > process.  I am thinking this would be at the level of a pseudo-concept.
> >
> > A pipe blower teachers an apprentice how to blow a pipe.  The pipe blower
> > goes through the steps but explains the intricacies of what each step
> > means and why it works towards the final product.  The apprentice is able
> > to understand (appropriate?) each of these steps and use it to create a
> > pipe, but also when the pipe blower wants to blow a different type of
> pipe
> > does not have to go through the same step by step process but move
> quickly
> > through the variations on the different steps.  The apprentice
> > understanding the meaning of the steps in the process understands quickly
> > and gets better and more efficient at making different types of pipes.  I
> > am thinking this would be everyday concepts.
> >
> > A pipe blower is teaching an apprentice how to blow a pipe.  The pipe
> > blower teaches the properties of how the material reacts to the flame,
> and
> > what a material like glass can and cannot do at different temperatures.
> > The pipe blower actually concentrates on the properties of materials more
> > than making a pipe, believing the making of the pipe may take a much
> > longer time, but the apprentice now has the freedom to experiment with
> not
> > only glass, but materials and heat and can branch off to make things in
> > different ways.  I am thinking this would be scientific concepts.
> >
> > The problem is, with the pipe blower take the time to engage in the
> third,
> > even though in the long run it is better for the community.  Probably
> not,
> > and may even think of it as being detrimetal.  That is why this type of
> > education needs to occur in formal schooling.
> >
> > Of course once formally schooled the apprentice actually needs to go back
> > and learn how to make an actualy pipe - actually go back to the concrete
> -
> > and that is what allows him to go forward in the context of this new,
> > abstract information.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu on behalf of ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org
> > Sent: Wed 7/7/2010 11:52 AM
> > To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] comparing NewYorker images
> >
> >
> >
> > perhaps this can be clarified perhaps not.
> >
> > When a tribal elder teaches an apprentice to build a blow pipe is that
> > conveying scientific concepts or is it conveying everyday concepts?
> >
> > In other words do scientific concepts only happen in a formal academic
> > setting?
> >
> > I can accept that everyday concepts grow out of perceptions rather than
> > abstractions of thought.
> >
> > Perhaps that is my own muddled perception on things.  For if one views
> > life as being perfect than one can live a perfect life.
> >
> > eric
> >
> >
> >
> > From:
> > mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> > To:
> > ablunden@mira.net, "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
> > <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > Date:
> > 07/07/2010 09:22 AM
> > Subject:
> > Re: [xmca] comparing NewYorker images
> > Sent by:
> > xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> >
> >
> >
> > Yes indeed, beware empty abstractions, Andy!
> > And rise to the concrete if we can.
> > My major point in that note was that in moving between "levels" of
> > abstraction contained with the image, our perception, how we
> > "see" the constituents changes. Might this be akin to the dynamics
> between
> > scientific and everyday concepts, and/or between differently configures
> > systems of higher psychological functions?
> > mike
> > On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:26 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Well, we're all hanging out for the next issue of The New Yorker now! I
> > > feel really "exposed" by this exercise. :) In both cases I failed to
> see
> > the
> > > cultural reference. I picked up the abstract-theoretical reference,
> > indeed
> > > I'd even already used No. 2 to illustrate "Gestalt", but still failed
> to
> > see
> > > the real-world, cultural meaning. :( Once an abstract-thinker, always
> an
> > > abstract thinker, no matter how many books you read.
> > >
> > > Andy
> > >
> > >
> > > White, Phillip wrote:
> > >
> > >> Well, certainly, Mike, I thing that knowing the song "Love and
> > marriage,
> > >> love and marriage, go together like a horse and carriage. Dad would
> say
> > to
> > >> Mother, "You can't have one without the other."
> > >>
> > >> So, yes, two peas in a pod, a pair of shoes, and a pair of eyes.
> > >>
> > >> Phillip
> > >> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> > >> Sender: "xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu" <xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > >> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 19:57:24 To: eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity<
> > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > >> Reply-To: "lchcmike@gmail.com" <lchcmike@gmail.com>, "eXtended Mind,
> > >> Culture,
> > >>        Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > >> Subject: [xmca] comparing NewYorker images
> > >>
> > >> I want to use the occasion of martin coming late to the second of two
> > new
> > >> yorker covers we have
> > >> been disscussing, to talk about some interesting properties of each
> and
> > >> different approaches to their
> > >> interpretation (I have still to deal with local microgenises).
> > >>
> > >> What both images seem to have in common is that an overall concept
> > covers
> > >> all the examples. One you see the overall concept, you
> > >> perception/interpretation of the constituents changes. And, if you are
> > >> working upward from the constituents, but still have not got "IT" the
> > >> little
> > >> its do not "add up."
> > >>
> > >> So someone sees the two eyeball shaped almost green things as "two
> > green
> > >> dots." But after one takes
> > >> in the heart *near* the top, and then the two bells with what look
> like
> > >> ribbons, on may think (June=prominent
> > >> month for getting married, weddding bells...... and from there on,
> > there
> > >> are
> > >> functional relations among the parts and those functions have changed
> > in
> > >> some cases where the function is difficult to discern, like those
> > >> two partly green eye shaped things. Now they become "two peas i a pod"
> > and
> > >> you might notice that it is
> > >> kind of strange that they are only partly green.
> > >>
> > >> I am pretty sure this is what Paula and David were writing about in a
> > more
> > >> consistent way.
> > >>
> > >> One thing I am pretty certain of. Getting "it" requires voobrazhenie,
> > >> into-image-making, and the process of
> > >> voobrazhenie is path dependent.
> > >>
> > >> What would LSV think?
> > >> mike
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> xmca mailing list
> > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> xmca mailing list
> > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > > --
> > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > *Andy Blunden*
> > > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/><
> http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/> <
> > http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/ <
> > http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/> <
> http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/
> >> >
> > > Videos: http://vimeo.com/user3478333/videos
>
> > > Book: http://www.brill.nl/scss
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > xmca mailing list
> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> >
> > [attachment "winmail.dat" deleted by ERIC RAMBERG/spps]
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
>
_______________________________________________
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca