RE: [xmca] help: Vygotsky and pedology (reading Holowinsky, part 2)

["Eugene Matusov" <ematusov@udel.edu>]

Wow, Anton, terrific work!!!! Thanks a lot! I think this should be
published.... I'm so glad that we have professional historian who can check
facts and direct to sources.

You wrote, 
> ...parts of his book Thought and Speech were prohibited from publication
> (Kolbanovsky, 1968). -- Comment. I personally definitely prefer referring
to
> the book as Thinking and Speech, but, as we have seen, this is a matter of
> taste. Generally, the reference to the "parts of the book" is unclear, but
the
> author refers to Kolbanovsky's paper that I do not presently have access
to,
> and I am unable to verify this statement. In any case, the issue of
prohibition
> to publish Vygotsky is a tricky one, and I am determined to distrust ANY
> reference to the prohibited publication of Vygotsky's works, until I see
at
> least one document where it is clearly stated. Until then we have no
> compelling reasons that anybody ever banned Vygotsky,--despite what the
> guys kept telling us all the way--and may equally believe that somebody
was
> just not persistent enough to have the stuff published. Actually, this is
> exactly what G.P. Shchedrovitskii stated on a number of occasions.
> References available upon request.

I remember reading Vygotsky's book "Thinking and speech" in the Ushinsky
library in Moscow in late 1970s. It was very old, probably, published in the
1934 (but I am not sure now). I wonder if it is possible to order it via
interlibrary exchange and check if it was cut.

As to banned books by Vygotsky, I wonder if after his death and public
attacks on him, it was impossible to publish his books.

What do you think?

Eugene

> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
> bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Anton Yasnitsky
> Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 3:58 PM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: Re: [xmca] help: Vygotsky and pedology (reading Holowinsky, part
2)
> 
> Here are only SOME of my comments on the paper by Holowinsky (1988).
> Vygotsky and the History of Pedology, please see below:
> 
> p. 123
>  Tautundzhian, 1983 --
> FALSE. The author's name is Tutundzhan, or, as it is spelled on the
journal's
> web-page - Tutunjyan O. M.
> http://www.voppsy.ru/eng/authoes/TUTUNJOM.htm
> By the way, this paper of 1983 is available online, in Russian:
> http://www.voppsy.ru/issues/1983/832/832139.htm
> 
> In December 1981, a conference was organized - TRUE Nineteen papers and
> six panels discussed in depth his contributions -- FALSE: the conference
was
> banned by the Party officials and never took place. Still, conference
> proceedings were published.
> Jacques Carpay retold us the story of this conference @ MCA,
> http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a785310030&db=all
> 
> ...parts of his book Thought and Speech were prohibited from publication
> (Kolbanovsky, 1968). -- Comment. I personally definitely prefer referring
to
> the book as Thinking and Speech, but, as we have seen, this is a matter of
> taste. Generally, the reference to the "parts of the book" is unclear, but
the
> author refers to Kolbanovsky's paper that I do not presently have access
to,
> and I am unable to verify this statement. In any case, the issue of
prohibition
> to publish Vygotsky is a tricky one, and I am determined to distrust ANY
> reference to the prohibited publication of Vygotsky's works, until I see
at
> least one document where it is clearly stated. Until then we have no
> compelling reasons that anybody ever banned Vygotsky,--despite what the
> guys kept telling us all the way--and may equally believe that somebody
was
> just not persistent enough to have the stuff published. Actually, this is
> exactly what G.P. Shchedrovitskii stated on a number of occasions.
> References available upon request.
> 
> Vygotsky's work Historical Meaning of Psychological Crisis written in 1926
had
> not been published by 1979 (Radzikhovsky, 1979) -- PARTIALLY TRUE.
> Clarification: the work, indeed, had not been published by 1979, but it
was
> published in 1982-1984 six-volume collection of Vygotsky's works, and the
> author of the paper on the history of Vygotskian psychology could and
> should have mentioned that. A reference to Radzikhovsky in this context
> looks a little bit redundant. Still, it is not not quite clear why this
specific work
> is mentioned: quite a few of Vygotsky's works (including his books, like,
e.g.,
> his Psychology of Art, The History of development of higher mental
functions
> or Tool and sign) had not been published during Vygotsky's lifetime and
even
> well after Stalin's death, so there is nothing special about the
Historical
> Meaning manuscriopt. Especially so, since, as recent research shows, in
all
> likelihood Vygotsky was not going to publish this work, but did publish
the
> substantially revised, improved and succinct excerpts from the manuscript
as
> a series of scholarly journal  articles (see Zavershneva, 2009,
Zavershneva &
> Osipov, 2010).
> 
> p. 124
> V.M. Bekhtiarev -- normally, this name is spelled as Bekhterev. I guess,
the
> author attempts to render the Ukrainian (more precisely, Western
Ukrainian)
> spelling of this Russian name.
> 
> Depaepe, 1985 --
> Comment and remark. Holowinsky provides pretty good exposition of
> Depaepe's work. FYI, since then, quite a lot of pretty good stuff in the
area of
> the history of education came out. The authors to follow are--among
others-
> -Marc Depaepe, Rita Hofstetter, Bernard Schneuwly, et al. Just google the
> names. Anyway, further refs available upon request.
> Note on David's note that "There is considerable confusion between
> "pedagogy" and "pedology"."-- We need to carefully distinguish between
> paedology/pedagogy in Europe and those in the Soviet Union. Two very
> different contexts, and very different meanings of "paedology" in the two
> traditions. In Europe, paedology was a nice initiative that for natural
reasons
> declined fairly soon (see, e.g., Depaepe, Marc (1997). The heyday of
> paedology in Belgium (1899-1914): a positivistic dream that did not come
> true), whereas in the Soviet Union "paedology" was an extremely
successful,
> militant and Marxist, fast spreading all over the place discipline and
social
> practice under the leadership of Zalkind and some other, less significant
> figures. Until some point, though :)...
> 
> There was a general climate in the Soviet Union of the 1920s which
fostered
> attempts at child study... -- Comment. I would say: The Bolsheviks most
> enthusiastically and lavishly supported ALL scientific research (not just
child
> study) from 1920s onwards, until the collapse of the Soviet Union.
> 
> ...During the decade, 1920-30, four different orientations evolved within
> Soviet psychology... -- FALSE. Certainly many more. The list may be
discussed,
> but four orientations is certainly a major misrepresentation of the
multitude
> of the ideas in the Soviet Union back then. Yet, Holowinsky refers to
McLeish
> (1975), and, thus, may be excused for this one.
> 
> p. 125
> [Vygotsky in 1917-1923] was a teacher of literature and psychology at a
high
> school in the city of Homel. -- Comment. Well, not only a teacher, and not
> only of literature, and not exactly at a high school, but, anyway, yes, a
> teacher, TOO.
> 
> Vygotsky introduced into psychology an historical approach to the
> understanding of human mental development, and... -- FALSE and, for
> obvious reasons, totally ridiculous. No comments.
> 
> ...and the study of children's mental development based upon Marxist
> ideology. -- Equally false and ridiculous. From here, onwards: Holowinsky
> renders Vygotsky quoting Leontiev, Luria and El'konin, and--with one
> exception of a paper of 1931--without referring to Vygotsky's own texts--
> isn't it a little bit weird? The result and the quality of his discussion
is quite
> predictable.
> 
> Vygotsky published Fundamentals of Defectology, and in the same year, a
> book with the intriguing title Fascism in Psychoneurology (1934). --
FALSE.
> Both books came out posthumously, so one can not say that Vygotsky
> "published" these books. The first one was a compilation of either
> somebody's course notes or a stenographic protocol of his lectures, most
> likely not revised by Vygotsky himself. The second title, too, came out
after
> Vygotsky's death, as a book signed by half a dozen other prominent
> psychoneurologists of the time (including the then late Vygotsky), and,
> according to the footnote, Vygotsky's was only the last, the fourth
chapter.
> Judging by the style of the text and the circumstances of this publication
> appearance we have NO REASONS to believe without reasonable doubt that
> the chapter in its entirety was authored by Vygotsky himself. (By
extension,
> the same argument holds for ABSOLUTELY ALL posthumous publications of
> Vygotsky).
> 
> Leontiev and Luria consider this view to be the central position of all of
> Vygotsky's criticism of Piaget (1931:22). -- MISLEADING REFERENCE. The
only
> item that was published in 1931 indicated in the paper's bibliography is:
> Vygotsky, L.S. (1931). Questions of pedology and sciences. Pedologiia,
3:52-
> 58. Apparently, page 22 is outside of this very article. NO other source
of 1931
> can be found on the list. Furthermore, I am under the impression that the
> author did not understand the Russian word "smezhnye" in the original
title
> of Vygotsky's 1931 paper, otherwise, I guess, he would have correctly
> translated the title as "Paedology and allied sciences"
> 
> Pedology became an easy target at the time of Stalin's increased suspicion
of
> foreign influences. -- FALSE. Holowinsky seems to assume that Stalin was
> increasingly suspicious of foreign influences on Soviet science, I guess.
Given
> that no international event of primary importance would take part without
> Stalin's knowledge and personal authorization, how would one explain a
> series of international scientific congresses held in the Soviet Union
> throughout the decade of 1930s (actually, until the beginning of WWII in
1939)
> such as:
> 1930, July - Second International Congress of Soil Scientists (Moscow and
> Leningrad) incidentally, this field was called "pedology", too :) 1931,
> September - Seventh International Conference on Psychotechnics (Moscow)
> 1934, May - Fourth International Congress on Rheumatology (Moscow) 1935,
> August - Fifteenth International Physiological Congress (Moscow and
> Leningrad) 1937, July - Seventeenth International Geological Congress
> (Moscow) -- not to mention Soviet scholars' participation in international
> conferences abroad worldwide until the end of the decade. Psychologists
are
> certainly not an exception from this general pattern.
> By the way, the Westerners would return from their trips to the Soviet
Russia,
> often critical of the Soviet lifestyle, but also often totally overwhelmed
by
> the achievements and the unbelievable progress of Soviet science of the
> period. Another reason for the Westerners' envy was the resource base and
> the lavish funding offered to the Soviet scholars. References available
upon
> request. Well, it appears real life hardly fits black and white picture of
the
> "oppressed science", after all, and not the liberal requirement of
democracy
> as a precondition of science is not necessarily and universally true.
> All in all, the anti-paedological campaign has absolutely nothing to do
with
> international affairs, and is totally internal issue.
> 
> p. 127
> The fight against pedology was led by Makarenko and Medinsky, etc. --
> BLATANT FALSIFICATION. Totally ungrounded stream of consciousness, a
> bunch of claims not substantiated by any reliable reference or empirical
> evidence. Makarenko was a notable yet far from an influential figure whose
> range of activities was basically all within Ukrainian SSR, working with
> education of homeless children (bezprizorniki) and juvenile delinquents
> under the jurisdiction of the Ministry or Internal Affairs, possibly,
NKVD,
> indeed. The whole narrative about Makarenko comes out of nothing. Finally,
> in the very end it turns out that we still understand next to nothing
about
> Vygotsky's relation to paedology. Regardless of numerous flaws,
> inconsistencies, and mere mistakes in the paper's argument and
factography.
> 
> Finally, a comment on comment (see below):
> RE: p. 126: The last two sentences of the third para on the left
amalgamate
> 1929, when pedology was perfectly legal, and 1934 when it was already
> banned. --
> 
> Comment: Paedology was by no means banned in 1934. Thus, to give just an
> example, see the list of Vygotsky's publications (Lifanova's list:
> http://www.voppsy.ru/journals_all/issues/1996/965/965137.htm ):
> 
> 1931:
> 207. Paedology of adolescent. -- Book, >500 pages
> 
> 1934:
> 250. Foundations of Paedology, 1st ed. Moscow, >200 pages (posthumous
> edition)
> 
> 1935:
> 250. Foundations of Paedology, 2nd ed. Leningrad, ~130 pages (posthumous
> edition)
> 
> In addition to that, note also two editions of Blonskii handbook on
Paedology
> of 1934 & 1936 and a handbook by Uznadze (aka Usnadze) on Paedology that
> came out in Georgian in Tbilisi in 1933. All of these books, absolutely
legal and
> mainstream, had been approved by Narkompros (Ministry of Education) and
> passed official censorship of Glavlit. So, the rumours of peadology's
death
> before 1936 turn out slightly exaggerated...
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> AY
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: David Kellogg <vaughndogblack@yahoo.com>
> To: lchcmike@gmail.com; Culture ActivityeXtended Mind
> <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> Sent: Tue, May 18, 2010 10:22:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [xmca] help: Vygotsky and pedology
> 
> Andy, Mike:
> 
> Anton is a historian, and a very good one. My stepfather was a good
historian
> too, so I know that good historians are apt to be a little gruff one we
get
> things wrong, and they have occasionally been known to freight historical
> details with very considerable importance.
> 
> I gather that one of the things that offends Anton is that Vladimir
Zinchenko
> is referred to as "Vasya", short for Vasily and not Vladimir. Holowinsky
might
> have been thinking of Davydov, whose name really is Vasily.
> 
> Here are some of the things I found that might be wrong in the article on
> pedology.
> 
> p. 123: "parts of his book Thought and Speech were prohibited from
> publication". Well, the whole thing, actually.
> 
> p. 124: There is considerable confusion between "pedagogy" and "pedology".
> The two things really were quite different, and in fact "pedology" was
> established partly in reaction to "pedagogy", as a science in its own
right. We
> applied linguists understand this very well; people are always confusing
us
> with linguists, which is a little like confusing a cucumber and a
concubine, or a
> protestant with a prostitute.
> 
> p. 126: The last two sentences of the third para on the left amalgamate
1929,
> when pedology was perfectly legal, and 1934 when it was already banned.
> Vygotsky's pedological work, including "Pedology of the Adolescent", was
> published in 1929. "Fascism in Psychoneurology" was, of course, published
in
> 1934, after the capitulation of psychologists like Jaensch, Ach, and Jung
to
> Nazism.
> 
> Now what I don't understand is this: in 1934, Vygotsky really did publish
a set
> of lectures called "Fundamentals of Pedology". By then, the struggle
against
> pedology had already been going on for so long that Vygotsky himself had
> criticized pedology (in Chapter Six of Thinking and Speech). It can't be
the
> usual problem with sonambulent publishers, either, because they're
> stenographic records of lectures delivered at the Second Moscow Medical
> Institute that very year. Perhaps he knew he wouldn't be around to face
the
> consequences.
> 
> David Kellogg
> Seoul National University of Education
> 
> --- On Tue, 5/18/10, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [xmca] help: Vygotsky and pedology
> To: ablunden@mira.net, "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
> <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> Date: Tuesday, May 18, 2010, 6:16 PM
> 
> 
> Gentlemen--
> 
> The post that Anton pointed us to is nonsense. The article on Pedology is
> more interesting, although he does mischaracterize me as THE editor of
Mind
> in Society. Some interesting refs there. The article was written in about
1987
> at a time when it was not so easy to get straight information on these
> matters. The Makarenko stuff was interesting. I didn't know he was
> connected with the NKVD  (assuming that is true).
> 
> Ease up. history is long, life is short.
> mike
> 
> On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 6:06 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> wrote:
> 
> > Fair point, Anton. I didn't check it because I didn't feel I qualified
> > as someone 'familiar with Vladimir Petrovich Zinchenko', though I did
> > 'know about the existence of such person'. I've read some of his work
> > but I know nothing about the person beyond that. I have always tended
> > to confuse the two Zinchenkos; are  they father and son? I have
> > checked it now, of course, and from your comment I guess there must be
> > a gross factual error in that little paragraph. But I can't tell. I'll
have to trust
> you.
> >
> > Andy
> >
> >
> > Anton Yasnitsky wrote:
> >
> >> Andy,
> >>
> >> I am under the impression you did not check out the link,
> >> specifically, the quote in English. If not, please, feel free to do
> >> so. Just in case, here is the link again:
> >>
> >> http://community.livejournal.com/psyhistorik/27712.html
> >>
> >> Please let us know if you do not believe this example counts as a
> >> justification.
> >>
> >> Anton
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----
> >> From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >> Sent: Tue, May 18, 2010 8:12:24 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [xmca] help: Vygotsky and pedology
> >>
> >> Anton,
> >> When political leaders in my country tell you that another person is
> >> a fool but don't have time to justify their claim they say: "Trust me!"
> >>
> >> Andy
> >>
> >> Anton Yasnitsky wrote:
> >>
> >>> Here is my first reaction to Eugene's question, the rest will follow
> >>> when I find time to fully enjoy the paper in question:
> >>>
> >>> Below is the link to my favourite example of Holowinsky's
> >>> scholarship that can be best appreciated by anybody familiar with
> >>> Vladimir Petrovich Zinchenko, or who at least knows about the
> >>> existence of such person and the basics of his genealogy:
> >>>
> >>> http://community.livejournal.com/psyhistorik/27712.html
> >>>
> >>> Enjoy :)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message ----
> >>> From: Eugene Matusov <ematusov@udel.edu>
> >>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>> Sent: Tue, May 18, 2010 4:13:32 PM
> >>> Subject: RE: [xmca] help: Vygotsky and pedology
> >>>
> >>> Dear Anton-
> >>>
> >>> Can you elaborate on Holowinsky's points in his article that you
> >>> view as wrong, please? And what is your basis for this criticism?
> >>> I'm asking these questions not because I want to challenge your
> >>> views but because I want to learn more about this interesting and
> >>> potentially influential history and you are a specilist in this
> >>> area.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>>
> >>> Eugene
> >>> PS I was surprised to read in Holowinsky's article about Makarenko's
> >>> opposition to pedology. Do you know more about that, by any chance?
> >>> ---------------------
> >>> Eugene Matusov, Ph.D.
> >>> Professor of Education
> >>> School of Education
> >>> University of Delaware
> >>> 16 W Main st.
> >>> Newark, DE 19716, USA
> >>>
> >>> email: ematusov@udel.edu
> >>> fax: 1-(302)-831-4110
> >>> website: http://ematusov.soe.udel.edu
> >>> publications: http://ematusov.soe.udel.edu/vita/publications.htm
> >>>
> >>> Dialogic Pedagogy Forum: http://diaped.soe.udel.edu
> >>> ---------------------
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>  -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
> >>>> bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Anton Yasnitsky
> >>>> Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 4:55 PM
> >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] help
> >>>>
> >>>> If I may add a comment, the author, as a rule,  presents a lot of
> >>>>
> >>> ridiculous--to
> >>>
> >>>> say just "erroneous" would be a gross understatement--stuff in his
> >>>>
> >>> writings,
> >>>
> >>>> so I would like to thank Mike for the paper and am anticipating a
> >>>> really hilarious reading :)
> >>>>
> >>>> Anton
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message ----
> >>>> From: Joao <jbmartin@sercomtel.com.br>
> >>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>> Sent: Sun, May 16, 2010 9:11:14 PM
> >>>> Subject: [xmca] help
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi...
> >>>> I need to find the paper "Vygotsky and the History of Pedology" of
> >>>> Ivan Z.
> >>>> Holowinsky. (School Psychology International, v. 9, 1988) Can
> >>>> anyone help me?
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks
> >>>>
> >>>> Joao Martins
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> xmca mailing list
> >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> xmca mailing list
> >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> > --
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -- Andy Blunden http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> > <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>+61 3 9380 9435 Skype andy.blunden An
> > Interdisciplinary Theory of Activity: http://www.brill.nl/scss
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> _______________________________________________
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> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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