RE: [xmca] about emotions

[Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>]

Text about Thorndike.
Part 2
Paragraph 4th

I will search for the Russian too.

> From: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> Subject: RE: [xmca] about emotions
> Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 07:50:56 +0000
> 
> 
> I will see, Andy, right now. Just a moment please.
> 
> > Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 18:47:29 +1100
> > From: ablunden@mira.net
> > To: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] about emotions
> > 
> > Achilles, I'm trying to find the passage you quote in LSV CW 
> > Volume 3. How many paragraphs from the beginning of the 
> > Preface is it? Or what % of the way through?
> > 
> > 
> > a
> > 
> > Achilles Delari Junior wrote:
> > > Andy,
> > > 
> > > I think that Vygotsky was trying to solve the problem of
> > > dualism in theory of emotions. He worked with the principle
> > > of "psychophysical unit" - the "main principle of Soviet psychology"
> > > in the words from Rubinshtein. The difference between 
> > > the cognitive and the instinctive is not because the cognitive
> > > have not physiological conditions, but the complexity of that 
> > > conditions and it mediated character... Vygotsky said that 
> > > "the psyche do not appears isolated from the world or from
> > > the process form organism neither for a 0,001 second" (1926/1991
> > > - Prólogo a la versión russa del libro de E. Thorndike 'Principios
> > > de enseñanza basados a la psicología - this is the Volume I 
> > > of the Works in Russian and Spanish, I don't remeber the number
> > > in English, because they do not follow the Russian numeration).
> > > You can see that psyche are not isolated from the organism and
> > > not isolated from the world. In fact human beens are constituted
> > > by the same substance that the world, we are not an "Impire inside
> > > the impire" - but to be the same substance do not means that we
> > > are in the same way... the same "mode" - I Spinoza´s words. 
> > > Vygotsky fight against a dualistic approach to emotions. And to
> > > him James is an "involuntary disciple of Descartes" because his
> > > especial emphasis in cultural feelings as spiritual process. Much
> > > common even today.
> > >  
> > > I only don't uderstand why you say that there is a problem that
> > > I am trying to solve. If cognition have not material support what
> > > kind of substance is cognition? This is not a problem, the problem
> > > is how to understand ideological, historical, conscious, cultural,
> > > constitution of human emotions in his/her whole personality without
> > > repeat a dualistic approach. I understand this problem is not only
> > > mine... this is a problem posed by Vygotsky himself. And I only 
> > > agree that is good question... I don't if Damasio already answer that.
> > > Can you tell me who did?
> > > 
> > > Achilles.   
> > > 
> > >> Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 17:56:10 +1100
> > >> From: ablunden@mira.net
> > >> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >> Subject: Re: [xmca] about emotions
> > >>
> > >> But you still need a distinction between a physiological 
> > >> reaction and a cognitive disposition, don't you, Achilles?
> > >>
> > >> What is the specific problem you are trying to solve?
> > >>
> > >> Andy
> > >>
> > >> Achilles Delari Junior wrote:
> > >>> Jay,
> > >>>
> > >>> Thank you very much.
> > >>>
> > >>> Something near to this distinction between feelings and emotions
> > >>> was posed by William James too, according Vygotsky, but James
> > >>> saw this distinction in terms that these social dimension of affective
> > >>> world, the higher feelings, have almost nothing related to biological, 
> > >>> physiological, material, body, conditions. And Vygotsky criticizes 
> > >>> this like a way of dualistic thinking - this dualism can be understood
> > >>> as based in ideological motivations too: "the human is not an animal,
> > >>> nor a material been, but a divine been, in his higher, superior feelings..."
> > >>>   
> > >>> A distinction between feelings and emotions is present in Damasio too
> > >>> in neurofunctional terms... But Vygotsky proposed the question of
> > >>> a systemic inter-relationship in that the lower can turns higher, and
> > >>> vice versa... I don't know what we can thing about this... In this 
> > >>> case, distinction between feelings and emotions are useful, but if
> > >>> we want to understand the entire human been, his/her whole personality,
> > >>> the integration and inter-functional relations between feelings and
> > >>> emotions turns relevant too, In my point of view.
> > >>>
> > >>> Best wishes.
> > >>> Achilles.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> From: jaylemke@umich.edu
> > >>>> To: lchcmike@gmail.com; xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] about emotions
> > >>>> Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 19:28:26 -0800
> > >>>> CC: 
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I am certainly one of those people interested in emotion, or feeling,  
> > >>>> or affect, or whatever we choose to make of the phenomenon.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The topic seems to have historically accumulated a lot of ideological  
> > >>>> baggage. And while its expression may be more sophisticated today than  
> > >>>> in times past, there doesn't seem to be that much less of it (as for  
> > >>>> example in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy review noted by  
> > >>>> someone earlier).
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Emotion tends to be seen as bad in our philosophical tradition. As the  
> > >>>> enemy of reason, the motor of self-deception, etc. It links us to the  
> > >>>> animals, to our "baser" nature, etc. A bit of this in the pagan  
> > >>>> tradition, a lot of it in christian asceticism, and tons of it in  
> > >>>> Enlightenment rationalism and its successors.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Emotions are also associated with the unreliable feminine vs. the cool  
> > >>>> and collected masculine, with the passions of the mob vs. the  
> > >>>> thoughtful elite, with peasants, workers, and children, and pretty  
> > >>>> much every social category whose oppression needs some legitimation.  
> > >>>> Indeed one of the near universal legitimations of elite power is "we  
> > >>>> know what's good for you", not just because of what we know, but  
> > >>>> because you can't be trusted to see your own best interests through  
> > >>>> the haze of your emotions.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Useful as this is to elite interests, it combines further with the  
> > >>>> cult of individualism to make emotions a purely individual, mental,  
> > >>>> subjective matter. Non-material, non-social, non-cultural, and  
> > >>>> universal (the easier to apply the stigma of emotionality to non- 
> > >>>> European cultures). It is rather hard to crawl out of this pit of mud.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> As I've been trying to do for the last year or two. There would be too  
> > >>>> much to say for a short post on this list, but here are a few basic  
> > >>>> suggestions:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Feeling is a broad enough category to get back to the phenomenology of  
> > >>>> affect/emotion, whereas "emotion" is too narrowly defined within the  
> > >>>> tradition of animal-like and universal.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> There are a LOT of different feelings, and that is more important than  
> > >>>> efforts to identify some small number of basic emotions.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Many feelings are associated with evaluative judgments and this may be  
> > >>>> a key link to re-unify affective and cognitive.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Feelings do differ significantly across cultures, and are part of a  
> > >>>> larger system of meanings-and-feelings specific to a community.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> You can't make meanings across any longer term process of reasoning  
> > >>>> without feelings and evaluative judgments.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> It is likely that feelings have histories, both in cultures and in  
> > >>>> individuals.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Feelings are often reliable guides to survival, to adaptive action,  
> > >>>> and to finding ways to meet our needs.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Feelings are just as situated and distributed as are cognitions. And  
> > >>>> just as active and actively made and produced.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> In short -- pretty much everything in our dominant tradition about  
> > >>>> emotions and feelings is exactly wrong -- and for the worst possible  
> > >>>> ideological-political reasons, I believe.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> JAY.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Jay Lemke
> > >>>> Professor (Adjunct, 2009-2010)
> > >>>> Educational Studies
> > >>>> University of Michigan
> > >>>> Ann Arbor, MI 48109
> > >>>> www.umich.edu/~jaylemke
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Visiting Scholar
> > >>>> Laboratory for Comparative Human Communication
> > >>>> University of California -- San Diego
> > >>>> La Jolla, CA
> > >>>> USA 92093
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Nov 26, 2009, at 8:08 AM, mike cole wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> With so much interest in achieving an integrated understanding of  
> > >>>>> emotion,
> > >>>>> cognition, and development, Achilles, your focus on this topic is a  
> > >>>>> helpful
> > >>>>> reminder of its continued importance.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Seems like one of those many areas in psychological research where  
> > >>>>> we cannot
> > >>>>> keep from murdering to dissect.
> > >>>>> mike
> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>> xmca mailing list
> > >>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>> xmca mailing list
> > >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>>  		 	   		  
> > >>> _________________________________________________________________
> > >>> Novo site do Windows Live: Novidades, dicas dos produtos e muito mais. Conheça!
> > >>> http://www.windowslive.com.br/?ocid=WindowsLive09_MSN_Hotmail_Tagline_out09_______________________________________________
> > >>> xmca mailing list
> > >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>>
> > >> -- 
> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> > >> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov, 
> > >> Ilyenkov $20 ea
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> xmca mailing list
> > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >  		 	   		  
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Agora a pressa é amiga da perfeição. Chegou o Windows 7. Conheça!
> > > http://www.microsoft.com/brasil/windows7/default.html?WT.mc_id=1539_______________________________________________
> > > xmca mailing list
> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> > Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov, 
> > Ilyenkov $20 ea
> > 
>  		 	   		  
> _________________________________________________________________
> Novo site do Windows Live: Novidades, dicas dos produtos e muito mais. Conheça!
> http://www.windowslive.com.br/?ocid=WindowsLive09_MSN_Hotmail_Tagline_out09_______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Converse e compartilhe fotos ao mesmo tempo. Saiba como no novo Site de Windows Live.
http://www.windowslive.com.br/?ocid=WindowsLive09_MSN_Hotmail_Tagline_out09_______________________________________________
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca