RE: [xmca] about emotions

[Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>]

>From that Stanford's list, I only read this title:

Sartre, Jean-Paul. 1948. The Emotions: Outline of a
Theory. New York: Philosophical Library.

It is nothing really great, "emotion as magic" is the main idea... and some kind of moralistic approach,
common to this author. Zaporozhets understand that emotions have a realistic importance too,
and criticizes several visions of emotion only as a kind of disintegration of consciousness, including
Sartre's one. This you can see in recent publication of a translation from a Zaporozhets article in the 
Journal of Russian and East European Psychology.

But I read Aritotle Rethorics that have a long section about how to elicit emotions in the audience,
(see the Book Second, with 26 chapters)... Unfortunately I saw more contributions in Aristotle than 
in Sartre, at least Aristotle have a long typology, and some kind of ancient understanding about some
relations between emotions and language, despite his only descriptive not genetic approach. And I read, 
of course, Spinoza's Ethics, much better than Aristotle, certainly. But both this references are not at 
that the Stanford bibliographic list. I consider curious these omissions, there are only indirect quotes... 
If Eric's observation about dichotomy in the summary have something related to dualistic views, 
Spinoza's absence, at least, is justifiable... I have Damasio's book about Spinoza and emotions too,
it is very interesting, but he don´t have problems in put together Spinoza and William James, some
think that is not so in this way for Vygotsky for instance...

I don´t know what happens to Chabrier, why he had only one work... Why only Vygostky seems to be
concerned in quote him. There is a revision about emotions from the year 1912, in "Psycholgogical
Bulletin"... and Chabrier is quoted:

http://www.archive.org/stream/psychologicalbul09ameruoft/psychologicalbul09ameruoft_djvu.txt

Thank you very much.

Achilles.


> From: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> Subject: RE: [xmca] about emotions
> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:11:02 +0000
> 
> 
> That dichotomy is the way of thinking against Vygotsky and Chabrier were
> at that time.
> Achilles.
> 
> > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > Subject: RE: [xmca] about emotions
> > From: ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org
> > Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:27:20 -0600
> > 
> > As I was reading the summary referenced below I was struck by the 
> > dichotomy of emotions and society.  So much so that they can instigate an 
> > interruption to a person's participation in society.  Perhaps emotions are 
> > societies nemesis?
> > 
> > what do other's think?
> > 
> > 
> > eric
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org
> > Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> > 11/25/2009 09:30 AM
> > Please respond to "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
> > 
> >  
> >         To:     "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >         cc: 
> >         Subject:        RE: [xmca] about emotions
> > 
> > 
> > I thought this was a well done review of the philosophy of emotion:
> > http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/emotion/
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
> > Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> > 11/25/2009 12:36 AM
> > Please respond to "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
> > 
> >  
> >         To:     "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >         cc: 
> >         Subject:        RE: [xmca] Vygotsky and J. F. Chabrier - about 
> > emotions
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Oh, sure, this a problem, above all, a problem not only a postulate.
> > I don't know about Winnicott, but human objects have a meaning too,
> > this semiotic dimension of an object, by any process is converted from
> > social relations to the social structure of personality... Vygotsky 
> > emphasizes ideological process in human emotion constitutions, for 
> > instance the difference between cellos in the Mussulman culture and
> > in occidental culture... And even historical transformations in our way
> > to feel something... including love... This seems to be an interesting
> > approach, because seems to trace a kind of anthropological view to
> > the question. Not only our tools, actions and signs historically 
> > developed,
> > but our emotions too, in a systemic and inter-functional set. These 
> > are some ideas that pass through me reading this chapter. But most
> > part of time Vygotsky is criticizing Descartes, James/Lange, Freud,
> > Scheler/Lotze... and his own affirmative position is only announced.
> > Winnicott can be a good contribution, I don´t know, how important
> > is the culture and the history to Winniccot? These transitional objetcs
> > chances only in form retaining the unconscious contends? Or the un-
> > conscious contends can change ideologically, culturally and historically?
> > How constitutional can be history, culture and ideology in human feelings?
> > The sample of Alighieri is very interesting... How many social process 
> > are important in love, for instance... not immediated ones, has you say,
> > but mediated process... Its complex, Vygotsky refuses the "peripheral
> > hypothesis, than the central, properly human, neuro-functional formations
> > will take a decisive role em the entire process... I don´t now, I only
> > have a problem, not sufficiently organized of course. I had read about
> > "perezhivanie" and its metodologycal role as "dynamic unit"... and 
> > emotions
> > are close, even they are not the same. 
> > 
> > Thank you, Andy.
> > Best wishes.
> > Achilles. 
> > 
> > > Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 17:09:03 +1100
> > > From: ablunden@mira.net
> > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotsky and J. F. Chabrier - about emotions
> > > 
> > > Achilles, this is a fascinating problem, isn't it? It's 
> > > kinda way out of my area, but can I just offer a couple of 
> > > innane observations from my own remote point of view?
> > > 
> > > 1. We should think of the body as an artifact which as such 
> > > plays the same mediating role in consciousness as do other 
> > > artifacts. We have a thought, our stomach tenses up, we feel 
> > > that tension in the stomach.  Thus the emotional reaction in 
> > > our guts mediates our feeling about the thought. etc.
> > > 
> > > 2. Donald Winnicott's current of psychoanalysis for all its 
> > > faults brings Freud much closer to CHAT by his study of 
> > > (transitional) objects which act as mediating elements for 
> > > us, bearers of affect and association. Same kind of thing as 
> > > 1., but the artifact is external to the body, but has 
> > > pesonal meaning.
> > > 
> > > Andy
> > > 
> > > Achilles Delari Junior wrote:
> > > > Some quotes, from Vygotsky
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Little attention has been given to this aspect of the problem because 
> > the problem
> > > > of man did not at all arise before contemporary psychology. But from 
> > the very
> > > > beginning, even the authors of the theory and their critics understood 
> > 
> > that in the
> > > > visceral hypothesis, they were speaking in essence of the animal 
> > nature of human
> > > > emotions. We will cite Chabrier, who advanced this idea in the most 
> > complete form.
> > > > Chabrier says that with this problem, we penetrate into the heart of 
> > the problem
> > > > and touch on the major objection that rises against the peripheral 
> > theory. When
> > > > we are speaking about instincts, we have before us an absolutely and 
> > invariably
> > > > established mechanism, which is activated automatically as soon as an 
> > appropriate
> > > > stimulation appears. It is possible that this is true also with 
> > respect to the primitive
> > > > emotions of the child, but it cannot be the same with respect to the 
> > usual emotions
> > > > of adults. (Vygotsky, 1999, p. 206)
> > > > 
> > > > Chabrier completely justifiably refers to the fact that a feeling of 
> > hunger, usually
> > > > considered in the group of lower bodily feelings in civilized man, is 
> > already a
> > > > fine feeling from the point of view of the nomenclature of James, that 
> > 
> > the simple
> > > > need of food can acquire a religious sense when it leads to the 
> > appearance of a
> > > > symbolic rite of mystical communication between man and God. And 
> > conversely,
> > > > a religious feeling, usually considered as a purely spiritual emotion, 
> > 
> > in pious cannibals
> > > > bringing human sacrifices to the gods, can scarcely he referred to the 
> > 
> > group
> > > > of higher emotions. Consequently, there is no emotion that by nature 
> > would be
> > > > independent of the body and not connected with it. James' book, The 
> > VrJrieties of
> > > > Religious Experience, shows incontrovertibly the extent to which 
> > higher feelings are
> > > > closely connected with all the fibers of our body. (Vygotsky, 1999, p. 
> > 
> > 207)
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Separating emotions from the development of a system of ideas and 
> > establishing
> > > > their dependence exclusively on organic structures, James inevitably 
> > comes
> > > > to the fatalistic conception of emotions which encompasses animals and 
> > 
> > man
> > > > equally. The serious differences that human emotions display depending 
> > 
> > on the
> > > > era, the degree of civilization, the difference between mystical 
> > adoration of a knight
> > > > for his lady and the noble gallantry of the seventeenth century, 
> > remain unexplained
> > > > from the point of view of this theory. Chabrier says, if we imagine 
> > the infinitely
> > > > rich nature of the poorest emotion, if we pay less attention to the 
> > imaginary psychology
> > > > of single-celled organisms than to the remarkable analysis of 
> > novelists and
> > > > writers, if we simply make use of valuable data supplied by 
> > observations of people
> > > > around us, we cannot but admit the complete failure of the peripheral 
> > theory. Actually,
> > > > it is impossible to admit that simple perception of a female 
> > silhouette automatically
> > > > evoked an endless series of organic reactions of which could be born 
> > love
> > > > such as the love of Dante for Beatrice if we do not previously assume 
> > the whole
> > > > ensemble of theological, political, esthetic, and scientific ideas 
> > that comprised the
> > > > consciousness of the genius, AJighieri. (Vygosky, 1999, p. 207)
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > I have atached before, to you see something, but perhaps with these 
> > direct quotes
> > > > you can tell me more about... Mainlly the question about historical, 
> > cultural ideological 
> > > > constitution of human emotions... If the development of this could not 
> > 
> > be looking for
> > > > in Past, any suggestions about clues in present and future are very 
> > welcome too.
> > > > 
> > > > Thank you very much.
> > > > Achilles
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >> From: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> > > >> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > >> Subject: RE: [xmca] Vygotsky and J. F. Chabrier - about emotions
> > > >> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 00:00:07 +0000
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Oh, incredible! Thank you very much. You are a "power plant",
> > > >> always working.
> > > >>
> > > >> Oh, "thick" have many meanings, I see. But, if it is about number 
> > > >> of pages, there are 157 pages.... according my Google sources...
> > > >>
> > > >> Then you see, please, what must I do to pay the order.
> > > >>
> > > >> Muito obrigado.
> > > >> Achilles.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:03:23 -0800
> > > >>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotsky and J. F. Chabrier - about emotions
> > > >>> From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > > >>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > >>> CC: VEER@fsw.leidenuniv.nl
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Achilles!!
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Voila!!   The book is in library at UC Berkeley. I have ordered it. 
> > Lets see
> > > >>> how thick it is.
> > > >>> :-)
> > > >>> mike
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 2:49 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> 
> > wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> I cannot find a thing, Achilles.
> > > >>>> Lets see if we can elicit some help.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Rene-- Do you know of this work? Is it of enduring signicance?
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> mike
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 3:01 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > >>>> achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> Hi XMCA,
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> How are you? I wish fine.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> I was studding the Vygotsky's "Teaching about emotions"
> > > >>>>> and at the chapter 18 (see atached) I find very interesting
> > > >>>>> mentions to Chabrier - (I guess Joseph François Chabrier that
> > > >>>>> wrote "Les émotions et les états organiques" in 1911). The
> > > >>>>> contributions from Chabrier are linked with Vygotsky's concerns
> > > >>>>> for criticize dualistic views about emotions, and to understand
> > > >>>>> actual relations between emotions and
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> - consciousness
> > > >>>>> - culture
> > > >>>>> - ideology
> > > >>>>> - history
> > > >>>>> - and personality
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> I search a lot for Chabrier, but there was practically nothing.
> > > >>>>> Nothing in Amazon, nothing in Google books. And French Libraries
> > > >>>>> don't send to Brazil.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Somebody have any suggestion, please? Any useful kind of service
> > > >>>>> to legally obtain the book? Some kind of "East View" to French 
> > resources?
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Thank you very much.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Achilles
> > > >>>>> from Brazil.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
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