RE: [xmca] about emotions

[Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>]

I will see, Andy, right now. Just a moment please.

> Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 18:47:29 +1100
> From: ablunden@mira.net
> To: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> Subject: Re: [xmca] about emotions
> 
> Achilles, I'm trying to find the passage you quote in LSV CW 
> Volume 3. How many paragraphs from the beginning of the 
> Preface is it? Or what % of the way through?
> 
> 
> a
> 
> Achilles Delari Junior wrote:
> > Andy,
> > 
> > I think that Vygotsky was trying to solve the problem of
> > dualism in theory of emotions. He worked with the principle
> > of "psychophysical unit" - the "main principle of Soviet psychology"
> > in the words from Rubinshtein. The difference between 
> > the cognitive and the instinctive is not because the cognitive
> > have not physiological conditions, but the complexity of that 
> > conditions and it mediated character... Vygotsky said that 
> > "the psyche do not appears isolated from the world or from
> > the process form organism neither for a 0,001 second" (1926/1991
> > - Prólogo a la versión russa del libro de E. Thorndike 'Principios
> > de enseñanza basados a la psicología - this is the Volume I 
> > of the Works in Russian and Spanish, I don't remeber the number
> > in English, because they do not follow the Russian numeration).
> > You can see that psyche are not isolated from the organism and
> > not isolated from the world. In fact human beens are constituted
> > by the same substance that the world, we are not an "Impire inside
> > the impire" - but to be the same substance do not means that we
> > are in the same way... the same "mode" - I Spinoza´s words. 
> > Vygotsky fight against a dualistic approach to emotions. And to
> > him James is an "involuntary disciple of Descartes" because his
> > especial emphasis in cultural feelings as spiritual process. Much
> > common even today.
> >  
> > I only don't uderstand why you say that there is a problem that
> > I am trying to solve. If cognition have not material support what
> > kind of substance is cognition? This is not a problem, the problem
> > is how to understand ideological, historical, conscious, cultural,
> > constitution of human emotions in his/her whole personality without
> > repeat a dualistic approach. I understand this problem is not only
> > mine... this is a problem posed by Vygotsky himself. And I only 
> > agree that is good question... I don't if Damasio already answer that.
> > Can you tell me who did?
> > 
> > Achilles.   
> > 
> >> Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 17:56:10 +1100
> >> From: ablunden@mira.net
> >> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> Subject: Re: [xmca] about emotions
> >>
> >> But you still need a distinction between a physiological 
> >> reaction and a cognitive disposition, don't you, Achilles?
> >>
> >> What is the specific problem you are trying to solve?
> >>
> >> Andy
> >>
> >> Achilles Delari Junior wrote:
> >>> Jay,
> >>>
> >>> Thank you very much.
> >>>
> >>> Something near to this distinction between feelings and emotions
> >>> was posed by William James too, according Vygotsky, but James
> >>> saw this distinction in terms that these social dimension of affective
> >>> world, the higher feelings, have almost nothing related to biological, 
> >>> physiological, material, body, conditions. And Vygotsky criticizes 
> >>> this like a way of dualistic thinking - this dualism can be understood
> >>> as based in ideological motivations too: "the human is not an animal,
> >>> nor a material been, but a divine been, in his higher, superior feelings..."
> >>>   
> >>> A distinction between feelings and emotions is present in Damasio too
> >>> in neurofunctional terms... But Vygotsky proposed the question of
> >>> a systemic inter-relationship in that the lower can turns higher, and
> >>> vice versa... I don't know what we can thing about this... In this 
> >>> case, distinction between feelings and emotions are useful, but if
> >>> we want to understand the entire human been, his/her whole personality,
> >>> the integration and inter-functional relations between feelings and
> >>> emotions turns relevant too, In my point of view.
> >>>
> >>> Best wishes.
> >>> Achilles.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> From: jaylemke@umich.edu
> >>>> To: lchcmike@gmail.com; xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] about emotions
> >>>> Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 19:28:26 -0800
> >>>> CC: 
> >>>>
> >>>> I am certainly one of those people interested in emotion, or feeling,  
> >>>> or affect, or whatever we choose to make of the phenomenon.
> >>>>
> >>>> The topic seems to have historically accumulated a lot of ideological  
> >>>> baggage. And while its expression may be more sophisticated today than  
> >>>> in times past, there doesn't seem to be that much less of it (as for  
> >>>> example in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy review noted by  
> >>>> someone earlier).
> >>>>
> >>>> Emotion tends to be seen as bad in our philosophical tradition. As the  
> >>>> enemy of reason, the motor of self-deception, etc. It links us to the  
> >>>> animals, to our "baser" nature, etc. A bit of this in the pagan  
> >>>> tradition, a lot of it in christian asceticism, and tons of it in  
> >>>> Enlightenment rationalism and its successors.
> >>>>
> >>>> Emotions are also associated with the unreliable feminine vs. the cool  
> >>>> and collected masculine, with the passions of the mob vs. the  
> >>>> thoughtful elite, with peasants, workers, and children, and pretty  
> >>>> much every social category whose oppression needs some legitimation.  
> >>>> Indeed one of the near universal legitimations of elite power is "we  
> >>>> know what's good for you", not just because of what we know, but  
> >>>> because you can't be trusted to see your own best interests through  
> >>>> the haze of your emotions.
> >>>>
> >>>> Useful as this is to elite interests, it combines further with the  
> >>>> cult of individualism to make emotions a purely individual, mental,  
> >>>> subjective matter. Non-material, non-social, non-cultural, and  
> >>>> universal (the easier to apply the stigma of emotionality to non- 
> >>>> European cultures). It is rather hard to crawl out of this pit of mud.
> >>>>
> >>>> As I've been trying to do for the last year or two. There would be too  
> >>>> much to say for a short post on this list, but here are a few basic  
> >>>> suggestions:
> >>>>
> >>>> Feeling is a broad enough category to get back to the phenomenology of  
> >>>> affect/emotion, whereas "emotion" is too narrowly defined within the  
> >>>> tradition of animal-like and universal.
> >>>>
> >>>> There are a LOT of different feelings, and that is more important than  
> >>>> efforts to identify some small number of basic emotions.
> >>>>
> >>>> Many feelings are associated with evaluative judgments and this may be  
> >>>> a key link to re-unify affective and cognitive.
> >>>>
> >>>> Feelings do differ significantly across cultures, and are part of a  
> >>>> larger system of meanings-and-feelings specific to a community.
> >>>>
> >>>> You can't make meanings across any longer term process of reasoning  
> >>>> without feelings and evaluative judgments.
> >>>>
> >>>> It is likely that feelings have histories, both in cultures and in  
> >>>> individuals.
> >>>>
> >>>> Feelings are often reliable guides to survival, to adaptive action,  
> >>>> and to finding ways to meet our needs.
> >>>>
> >>>> Feelings are just as situated and distributed as are cognitions. And  
> >>>> just as active and actively made and produced.
> >>>>
> >>>> In short -- pretty much everything in our dominant tradition about  
> >>>> emotions and feelings is exactly wrong -- and for the worst possible  
> >>>> ideological-political reasons, I believe.
> >>>>
> >>>> JAY.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Jay Lemke
> >>>> Professor (Adjunct, 2009-2010)
> >>>> Educational Studies
> >>>> University of Michigan
> >>>> Ann Arbor, MI 48109
> >>>> www.umich.edu/~jaylemke
> >>>>
> >>>> Visiting Scholar
> >>>> Laboratory for Comparative Human Communication
> >>>> University of California -- San Diego
> >>>> La Jolla, CA
> >>>> USA 92093
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Nov 26, 2009, at 8:08 AM, mike cole wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> With so much interest in achieving an integrated understanding of  
> >>>>> emotion,
> >>>>> cognition, and development, Achilles, your focus on this topic is a  
> >>>>> helpful
> >>>>> reminder of its continued importance.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Seems like one of those many areas in psychological research where  
> >>>>> we cannot
> >>>>> keep from murdering to dissect.
> >>>>> mike
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>  		 	   		  
> >>> _________________________________________________________________
> >>> Novo site do Windows Live: Novidades, dicas dos produtos e muito mais. Conheça!
> >>> http://www.windowslive.com.br/?ocid=WindowsLive09_MSN_Hotmail_Tagline_out09_______________________________________________
> >>> xmca mailing list
> >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>
> >> -- 
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> >> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov, 
> >> Ilyenkov $20 ea
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> xmca mailing list
> >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >  		 	   		  
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Agora a pressa é amiga da perfeição. Chegou o Windows 7. Conheça!
> > http://www.microsoft.com/brasil/windows7/default.html?WT.mc_id=1539_______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > 
> 
> -- 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov, 
> Ilyenkov $20 ea
> 
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Novo site do Windows Live: Novidades, dicas dos produtos e muito mais. Conheça!
http://www.windowslive.com.br/?ocid=WindowsLive09_MSN_Hotmail_Tagline_out09_______________________________________________
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca