Attached is the paper martin refers to. But where is the equivalent to the indented passage from the Soviet Psych translation and p. 310 vol 3 of collected works (in English?). I may have vol 3 in Russian at work and can check, but it appears to me, as indicated elsewhere in the discussion, that this methodological/ontological chit chat comes from recent British writing, the relationship of which to LSV's writing in cited passages is not clear to me. mike On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 6:35 AM, Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu> wrote: > Mabel, > > Yes, this is where LSV insists on the importance of not confusing > epistemological issues with ontological ones. It's one of the more puzzling > passages in Crisis, and I suspect there are some problems with the > translation. (Is the indented passage a quotation from Hoffding? Does anyone > have that text?) Nothing here about methodological dualism, however. I don't > think this passage is the place to start to understand better the > distinction between epistemology and ontology, if that is what you want to > do. > > Martin > > You might consider taking a look here (if so tell me whether or not it > helps): > > Packer, M. J., & Goicoechea, J. (2000). Sociocultural and constructivist > theories of learning: Ontology, not just epistemology. Educational > Psychologist, 35(4), 227-241. > > > On Nov 14, 2009, at 11:45 PM, Mabel Encinas wrote: > > > > > Martin, > > > > > > > > Here it is (Andy sent it to me, I have it in hardcopy Vol 3 of Vygotsky's > Collected Works, p. 310): > http://marx.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri13.htm#p1367 > > > > > > Mabel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Subject: Re: [xmca] Emotions and methodology > >> From: packer@duq.edu > >> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 18:42:06 -0500 > >> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > >> > >> Mabel, > >> > >> I confess I don't recognize the term methodological dualism. Where are > you finding this? > >> > >> Martin > >> > >> On Nov 14, 2009, at 5:45 PM, Mabel Encinas wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> My question to Andy was if he could please give me some references > about the difference-relation between ontological and methodological > dualism? I was aimed to get some contemporary references to this discussion. > I already had read Vygotsky. Does anyone has a suggestion, please? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Thank you, > >>> Mabel > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 08:56:07 -0800 > >>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Hello Other Brain, how are you? > >>>> From: lchcmike@gmail.com > >>>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > >>>> > >>>> There was a discussion of this topic around your MCA article a while > back, > >>>> Michael. Mabel might be able to use some of the specific techniques, > which, > >>>> I recall, were not too demading in terms of technology, to find a > bridge to > >>>> what her advisors expect. > >>>> > >>>> Martin's sources are right on. But Mabel is going to have to negotiate > the > >>>> rocky > >>>> shoals of her own institutional situation, and invoking XMCA is not > likely > >>>> to win her a lot of friends!! > >>>> > >>>> mike > >>>> > >>>> On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 8:16 AM, Wolff-Michael Roth <mroth@uvic.ca> > wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> In the following piece, we show how emotion (as evidenced in prosody) > is a > >>>>> resource for the coordination of social action. Michael > >>>>> > >>>>> Cult Stud of Sci Educ > >>>>> DOI 10.1007/s11422-009-9203-8 > >>>>> Solidarity and conflict: aligned and misaligned prosody > >>>>> as a transactional resource in intra- and intercultural > >>>>> communication involving power differences > >>>>> Wolff-Michael Roth Æ Kenneth Tobin > >>>>> > >>>>> here > >>>>> > >>>>> On 2009-11-14, at 6:55 AM, Martin Packer wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> I'm going to ignore Andy's request to ignore his message to Mabel, > because > >>>>> I'm sure Mabel is not the only person being told this sort of thing. > The > >>>>> claim, I suppose, is that emotion is a subjective experience, and > therefore > >>>>> something mental, internal, personal, private and so inaccessible to > other > >>>>> people, including the researcher, who has access only to the external > >>>>> 'expression' of that emotion, on the face, in movements, etc. > >>>>> > >>>>> Nonsense. How to argue against that view? Take a look at Joe de > Rivera's > >>>>> work on emotions as interpersonal movements, towards or away from > people on > >>>>> three interpersonal dimensions of intimacy, openness, and status. > Read Hall > >>>>> and Cobey (1976) on emotion as transformation of the world. Read > Mead's > >>>>> Mind, Self and Society where he challenges Darwin, insisting that "we > >>>>> cannot approach them [emotions] from the point of view of expressing > a > >>>>> content in the mind of the individual" (p. 17) because to do so > presumes a > >>>>> dualism between consciousness and the biological organism. > >>>>> > >>>>> These are some resources that come immediately to my mind. What can > others > >>>>> out there recommend? > >>>>> > >>>>> Martin > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Nov 14, 2009, at 4:42 AM, Andy Blunden wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> You have good muses Mabel (Vygotsky and Marx), pity you > >>>>>> don't have better supervisors. Your approach, studying > >>>>>> microsituations as social, is Vygotsky's approach too, I > >>>>>> think, and excellent one, that is often, I fear, not well > >>>>>> understood. I am probably the last person to ask about that > >>>>>> kind of problem as I have a devil of a problem making myself > >>>>>> understood. Others will know the answers to your questions > >>>>>> better than me, too. But I will mention a few suggestions. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Mabel Encinas wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> My supervisors are questioning now, that I do not study emotions, > but > >>>>>>> "the expression of emotions". I know how to solidify my argument in > this > >>>>>>> bit, but could you please give me some references of where should I > read > >>>>>>> about the difference-relation between ontological and > methodological > >>>>>>> dualism? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I guess you have already read Vygotsky's comments on > >>>>>> ontological vs methodological/epistemological dualism: > >>>>>> http://marx.org/archive/vygotsky/works/crisis/psycri13.htm#p1367 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> If you use Google on this one, you will probably find a page > >>>>>> where I am being attacked by someone called Neville for > >>>>>> failing to make this distinction. I am far from sure of the > >>>>>> value of that exchange but you are welcome to read it. I > >>>>>> would not attempt a short summary of this issue. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I am not sure what you are being accused of about emotions. > >>>>>> Martha Nussbaum is a Critical Theorist who writes good stuff > >>>>>> about emotions. And of course everyone reads Antonio > >>>>>> Damassio, with his distinction between feelings and > >>>>>> emotions. Certainly, emotions are only present in > >>>>>> consciousness thanks to their "interpretation" by culturally > >>>>>> acquired concepts. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ""the expression of emotions" is a strange expression to me. > >>>>>> Are they using "emotions" to refer to forms of consciousness > >>>>>> which are "expressed" in high blood pressure, etc? Or are > >>>>>> they using "emotions" to refer to physiological conditions, > >>>>>> which are "expressed" in the character of behavior. I don't > >>>>>> understand. I am sure others will know. Sounds like a > >>>>>> template accusation. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Andy > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> xmca mailing list > >>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > >>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> xmca mailing list > >>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > >>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> xmca mailing list > >>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > >>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca > >>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> xmca mailing list > >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca > >>> > >>> _________________________________________________________________ > >>> Keep your friends updated—even when you’re not signed in. > >>> > http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/see-it-in-action/social-network-basics.aspx?ocid=PID23461::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-xm:SI_SB_5:092010_______________________________________________ > >>> xmca mailing list > >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> xmca mailing list > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Windows Live Hotmail: Your friends can get your Facebook updates, right > from Hotmail®. > > > http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/see-it-in-action/social-network-basics.aspx?ocid=PID23461::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-xm:SI_SB_4:092009_______________________________________________ > > xmca mailing list > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca > > _______________________________________________ > xmca mailing list > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >
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