Andy, I replied off-line, but your response was intended for on-line, so
I'm forwarding to the list. ...David
David H Kirshner wrote:
Much appreciate the graphic, Andy.
Unfortunately the accompanying text lingers for only a few seconds
before needing to be refreshed by moving cursor out of and back into
box. Is this something that can be controlled on your end?
Andy replied: Yes, very annoying, isn't it David. I have searched
around the internet, but so far I haven't found any way of
controlling this time. Any HTML or Java whizzkids out there?
Andy
-----Original Message-----
Andy Blunden
<ablunden@mira.ne
t>
To Sent by: "eXtended Mind, Culture,
Activity" xmca-bounces@webe <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
r.ucsd.edu
cc
Subject 11/11/2009 01:18 Re: [xmca] Arne
Raeithel's
AM "genealogy"
Please respond to
ablunden@mira.net
; Please respond
to
"eXtended Mind,
Culture,
Activity"
<xmca@weber.ucsd.
edu>
http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Paper/Genealogy-CHAT.htm
I replaced the PDF with an HTML version, which gives you
little 50-word summaries of what each contributed to CHAT
(when you hover) and a link to their Wikipedia page (when
you click).
Andy
Martin Packer wrote:
Andy, thinking on this a bit further, it seems to me that these
diagrams
are trying to do two different things at the same time. One is to
provide helpful contextual information to anyone reading LSV's texts.
I
think this itself is a valuable enterprise, one that compensates a
little for the minimal teaching of the history of the discipline in
psychology, at least. A diagram serving this purpose need go no
further
towards the present than the end of Vygotsky's life. And for this the
lines to and from Vygotsky himself would be redundant; he would be
connected to everyone.
A second task, and a distinct one in my view, would be a diagram
indicating forms of, and influences on, CHAT today. Here people like
Helmholtz and Fichte would, I think, not play a role - their
influence
would be entirely mediated by LSV. And such a diagram would be more
detailed about the present: for example, the last row of your diagram
is
almost exclusively people working in the US; it would be helpful to
see
here Scandinavian, German, British, etc. schools of CHAT.
I'm not volunteering you for the work (nor do I have time to do it
myself), just trying to think through the role of this kind of
representational reconstruction of intellectual history.
Martin
On Nov 9, 2009, at 12:18 AM, Andy Blunden wrote:
Yes, it is mind-boggling. Probably better for people to produce a
multiplicity of different perspectives, than try to produce a master
view. There are so many angles!
Lewin is interesting. Not only was he close to the Frankfurt School,
but he also worked with Vygotsky, and I suspect this is where
Vygotsky
got a lot of his Hegel from.
Andy
Martin Packer wrote:
Andy, I think the map is interesting and useful. But how about
this.
I was exploring further on the virtual library that I mentioned in
a
prior message. It turns out there's quite a lot there in English,
not
only German. I had been enjoying myself browsing through scans of
the
papers of Carl Stumpf, who was teacher of both Kurt Lewin and
Edmund
Husserl. Teacher-student seems to me one important connection
between
figures. Lewin apparently had regular contact with the Frankfurt
School (connection of 'colleague') before leaving for the US, where
he would have found himself transplanted into the new milieu of
behaviorism.
I think Mike is right, we need 3D!
Martin
On Nov 8, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Andy Blunden wrote:
I've been thinking ... What these diagrams lack is any information
about why a writer is included and what they contributed to CHAT.
Would anyone on the list like to put their hand up to write a
paragraph (max 100 words probably) on a writer on the diagram
explaining their contribution to CHAT and their sources? I would
be
happy to collate them and fix the essays to hyperlinks on the
names
of each writer? ... if others do most of the writing ... then the
diagram might be genuinely useful.
Andy
Andy Blunden wrote:
Mmmmm. I didn't sign up for an intellecual map of the universe
here! The French Revolution produced a mass of political theory
of
course, but also, it is widely regarded as the inspiration for
Classical German Philosophy, which is one of our sources.
World War One? I don't know, but I have thought in the past that
what Vygotsky called "The Crisis in Psychology", viz., the myriad
of conflicting currents in psychology suddenly contesting each
other after WW1, was some kind of reaction to WW1 and the Russian
Revolution.
The Reformation and the Industrial Revolution deserve mention
somewhere too, in the atlas of ideas. ...
Andy
mike cole wrote:
Hmmmmm, like the French revolution or world war I for example?
:-)
mike
On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 4:18 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
Both Arne's and mine are listed on
http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Paper/index.html and both are in that
directory. I too would be interested in seeing some other
versions.
Something might emerge out of the crowd.
It is interesting isn't that it is a quite small number of ...
what
do you say? ... millieux? events? movements? which produced
the
main
ideas, via a whole mass of individual writers.
Andy
mike cole wrote:
I think your pictured genealogy is interesting, Andy. I
thought
Arne's was too, and I a sure others can make interesting
modifications. If anyone could do this in three D it could
get
really fascinating.
Part of what makes for the partiality of any such attempt
is
the
position of the creator. Arne was a radical cultural
historical
cognitive scientist of the
70's-90's (roughly), an importatant odd hybrid and
unusually
nice guy.
Maturana, who is on his list, with Varela, were central
figures
on bringing
dynamic systems into the discussion but you do not know
about
him just
as many of us do not know some of the figures you name,
and
the
connections such as Dilthey-Wundt or Mead-Dilthey-American
pragmatism are poorly known altogether, but fascinating
(to
me!)
in their implications.
And, of course, the historical events that various of us
might
highlight as
most relevant are going to vary as well.
Thanks for the new tool to think with. I'll try to get
Arne's
genealogy put
up where yours is and perhaps others will contribute from
their
perspectives.
mike
On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 6:42 AM, Andy Blunden
<ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>> wrote:
Well, here's my shot at it:
http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Paper/Genealogy-CHAT.pdf
I have tried to deal with your very valid point,
Martin,
that
it is
more the milieux than individuals, but I have also just
omitted a
billion possible arrows so it is readable. It needs
more
than one
person to do this.
Andy
Martin Packer wrote:
My question about the map is what the links
represent. After
all, one scientist or philosopher may accept the
ideas or
another, or react against them, or modify them, or
misunderstand
them. Seems to me each of these is a different
link.
Also, a
family tree indicates two parents for every
progeny,
where
Arne's genealogy seemingly shows spontaneous
generation - one
figure alone can produce another. And wouldn't we
want to
have a
way to map the milieus within which people were
working?
Perhaps
something along the lines of the social fields that
Bourdieu was
fond of sketching, but with an added historical
dimension.
Martin
On Nov 4, 2009, at 1:44 AM, Andy Blunden wrote:
To tell the truth Louise, there are a couple of
names I
don't know and half a dozen I know so little
about
I
don't
know why they're included ... or not. Two of
the
three
"outcomes" are people who think humans are a
type
of
computer, so I am not surpised that this
genealogy is
odd to
me. But there is sooooo much out there. So much
to
read. :(
Up till a few weeks ago I thought that starting
with
Descartes was not justified, but I take that
back
now. But
somehow, Rene's nemesis, Aristotle, needs to be
included as
well.
I don't know anything about Vico, but I find
Locke,
Berkeley
and Leibniz to be rather peripheral to *our*
story.
Kant certainly deserves an important place, but
I
think his
nemesis, Goethe, may be more important for us.
Fichte is actually the inventor of Activity as
a
philosophical concept (I just learnt that Hegel
asked
to be
buried next to Fichte; like Goethe, very under
recognized in
the Anglophone world).
Hegel is the inventor of Cultural Psychology,
so
agreed there.
I think Stirner and Mach are total diversions
from our
tradition. But maybe someone can explain to me
their
role.
Wundt and Dilthey are important, though I don't
know
them well.
Feuerbach is a bit of a footnote, but if you're
going to
have Feuerbach, you've gotta have Moses Hess,
author of
"Philosophy of the Deed", and inspiration for
"Theses on
Feuerbach". Of course if you think Frege,
Russell
and
Turing
are important to the genealogy of CHAT, then
you
wouldn't
want Hess.
MARX, obviously, in CAPS.
And I would have lines from a whole bunch of
people
going to
Dewey, as well as Peirce and Mead, but even
though Peirce
was the elder, I don't think you can give him
such
priority.
Dewey surely was the leader. Arguable.
And where are the Gestaltists? Again, not for
computer
cognition, but there needs to be lines between
Goethe and
Kant and then to von Ehrenfels, and on to
Koehler
and Co.
Russian linguists like Potebnya, but I don't
know
where they
came from.
And these threads are all tied together with LS
Vygotsky, yes?
Freud has to be mentioned (I forget his
sources),
with
arrows to Luria. And after Vygotsky and Luria
you
have ANL
and thus to present day people,
I guess, you can't leave out Piaget, and I
don't
know
Piaget's sources.
I know some people rate Merleau-Ponty, but if
you're
going
to give Merleau-Pony a seat, you have to put in
Lukacs and
Horkheimer. I guess Habermas for discourse
ethics, etc.
I have no idea why Husserl and Heidegger get a
mention. I my
humble opinion, as clever as they might be,
their
impact on
Activity Theory has only been negative.
I have no idea why Bergson is mentioned: was he
a
source for
Piaget? Don't know why Nietzsche is there.
Interesting guy,
but so are many others. Why von Uexhill?
I agree that Wittgenstein rates a mention,
though
I don't
know how much of a source he has been for us.
He
is some
kind of version of Activity Theory.
Frege, Russell and Turing are nothing to do
with
CHAT. What
about anthropologists??
Never heard of Maturana.
That's my reaction,
Andy
Louise Hawkins wrote:
Andy,
I remember seeing this diagram a number of
years ago,
and I found it useful as a big picture
diagram to
get my
head around the significant theorist.
Regards
Louise Hawkins
Lecturer - School of Management &
Information
Systems
Faculty Business & Informatics
Building 19/Room 3.38
Rockhampton Campus
CQUniversity
Ph: +617 4923 2768
Fax: +617 4930 9729
-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Blunden
[mailto:ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>] Sent: Wednesday, 4 November
2009 01:05 PM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: [xmca] Arne Raeithel's "genealogy"
http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Paper/Theoretical%20connections.jpg
I never found this map very useful to be
honest.
Andy
mike cole wrote:
Have you found Arne Raeithel's
"genealogy" of
cultural-historical, activity theory
thinkers
from
several years back. I am sure it is
somewhere at
lchc.ucsd.edu <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>
<http://lchc.ucsd.edu>
<http://lchc.ucsd.edu>. Perhaps you
(and
Andy,
and.....) could update it with
more detail. Hegel generated so much
that
has
been
"laundered" by subsequent "original"
thinkers its
totally amazing, and ditto Mead (whose
writings i
know far better, although very
inadequately).
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Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
Ilyenkov $20 ea
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Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
Ilyenkov $20 ea
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Ilyenkov $20 ea
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