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RE: FW: [xmca] Arne Raeithel's "genealogy"
Andy, I replied off-line, but your response was intended for on-line, so
I'm forwarding to the list. ...David
David H Kirshner wrote:
> Much appreciate the graphic, Andy.
> Unfortunately the accompanying text lingers for only a few seconds
> before needing to be refreshed by moving cursor out of and back into
> box. Is this something that can be controlled on your end?
Andy replied:
Yes, very annoying, isn't it David. I have searched around
the internet, but so far I haven't found any way of
controlling this time. Any HTML or Java whizzkids out there?
Andy
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
>
> Andy Blunden
>
> <ablunden@mira.ne
>
> t>
> To
> Sent by: "eXtended Mind, Culture,
> Activity"
> xmca-bounces@webe <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>
> r.ucsd.edu
> cc
>
>
>
> Subject
> 11/11/2009 01:18 Re: [xmca] Arne Raeithel's
>
> AM "genealogy"
>
>
>
>
>
> Please respond to
>
> ablunden@mira.net
>
> ; Please respond
>
> to
>
> "eXtended Mind,
>
> Culture,
>
> Activity"
>
> <xmca@weber.ucsd.
>
> edu>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Paper/Genealogy-CHAT.htm
>
> I replaced the PDF with an HTML version, which gives you
> little 50-word summaries of what each contributed to CHAT
> (when you hover) and a link to their Wikipedia page (when
> you click).
>
> Andy
>
> Martin Packer wrote:
>> Andy, thinking on this a bit further, it seems to me that these
> diagrams
>> are trying to do two different things at the same time. One is to
>> provide helpful contextual information to anyone reading LSV's texts.
> I
>> think this itself is a valuable enterprise, one that compensates a
>> little for the minimal teaching of the history of the discipline in
>> psychology, at least. A diagram serving this purpose need go no
> further
>> towards the present than the end of Vygotsky's life. And for this the
>> lines to and from Vygotsky himself would be redundant; he would be
>> connected to everyone.
>>
>> A second task, and a distinct one in my view, would be a diagram
>> indicating forms of, and influences on, CHAT today. Here people like
>> Helmholtz and Fichte would, I think, not play a role - their
influence
>> would be entirely mediated by LSV. And such a diagram would be more
>> detailed about the present: for example, the last row of your diagram
> is
>> almost exclusively people working in the US; it would be helpful to
> see
>> here Scandinavian, German, British, etc. schools of CHAT.
>>
>> I'm not volunteering you for the work (nor do I have time to do it
>> myself), just trying to think through the role of this kind of
>> representational reconstruction of intellectual history.
>>
>> Martin
>>
>>
>> On Nov 9, 2009, at 12:18 AM, Andy Blunden wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, it is mind-boggling. Probably better for people to produce a
>>> multiplicity of different perspectives, than try to produce a master
>>> view. There are so many angles!
>>>
>>> Lewin is interesting. Not only was he close to the Frankfurt School,
>>> but he also worked with Vygotsky, and I suspect this is where
> Vygotsky
>>> got a lot of his Hegel from.
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>> Martin Packer wrote:
>>>> Andy, I think the map is interesting and useful. But how about
this.
>>>> I was exploring further on the virtual library that I mentioned in
a
>>>> prior message. It turns out there's quite a lot there in English,
> not
>>>> only German. I had been enjoying myself browsing through scans of
> the
>>>> papers of Carl Stumpf, who was teacher of both Kurt Lewin and
Edmund
>>>> Husserl. Teacher-student seems to me one important connection
> between
>>>> figures. Lewin apparently had regular contact with the Frankfurt
>>>> School (connection of 'colleague') before leaving for the US, where
>>>> he would have found himself transplanted into the new milieu of
>>>> behaviorism.
>>>> I think Mike is right, we need 3D!
>>>> Martin
>>>> On Nov 8, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Andy Blunden wrote:
>>>>> I've been thinking ... What these diagrams lack is any information
>>>>> about why a writer is included and what they contributed to CHAT.
>>>>> Would anyone on the list like to put their hand up to write a
>>>>> paragraph (max 100 words probably) on a writer on the diagram
>>>>> explaining their contribution to CHAT and their sources? I would
be
>>>>> happy to collate them and fix the essays to hyperlinks on the
names
>>>>> of each writer? ... if others do most of the writing ... then the
>>>>> diagram might be genuinely useful.
>>>>>
>>>>> Andy
>>>>>
>>>>> Andy Blunden wrote:
>>>>>> Mmmmm. I didn't sign up for an intellecual map of the universe
>>>>>> here! The French Revolution produced a mass of political theory
of
>>>>>> course, but also, it is widely regarded as the inspiration for
>>>>>> Classical German Philosophy, which is one of our sources.
>>>>>> World War One? I don't know, but I have thought in the past that
>>>>>> what Vygotsky called "The Crisis in Psychology", viz., the myriad
>>>>>> of conflicting currents in psychology suddenly contesting each
>>>>>> other after WW1, was some kind of reaction to WW1 and the Russian
>>>>>> Revolution.
>>>>>> The Reformation and the Industrial Revolution deserve mention
>>>>>> somewhere too, in the atlas of ideas. ...
>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>> mike cole wrote:
>>>>>>> Hmmmmm, like the French revolution or world war I for example?
>>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>>> mike
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 4:18 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>>>>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Both Arne's and mine are listed on
>>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Paper/index.html and both are in that
>>>>>>> directory. I too would be interested in seeing some other
> versions.
>>>>>>> Something might emerge out of the crowd.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is interesting isn't that it is a quite small number of ...
> what
>>>>>>> do you say? ... millieux? events? movements? which produced
the
>>>>>>> main
>>>>>>> ideas, via a whole mass of individual writers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> mike cole wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think your pictured genealogy is interesting, Andy. I
> thought
>>>>>>> Arne's was too, and I a sure others can make interesting
>>>>>>> modifications. If anyone could do this in three D it could
> get
>>>>>>> really fascinating.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Part of what makes for the partiality of any such attempt
> is
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> position of the creator. Arne was a radical cultural
> historical
>>>>>>> cognitive scientist of the
>>>>>>> 70's-90's (roughly), an importatant odd hybrid and
> unusually
>>>>>>> nice guy.
>>>>>>> Maturana, who is on his list, with Varela, were central
> figures
>>>>>>> on bringing
>>>>>>> dynamic systems into the discussion but you do not know
> about
>>>>>>> him just
>>>>>>> as many of us do not know some of the figures you name,
and
> the
>>>>>>> connections such as Dilthey-Wundt or Mead-Dilthey-American
>>>>>>> pragmatism are poorly known altogether, but fascinating
(to
>>>>>>> me!)
>>>>>>> in their implications.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And, of course, the historical events that various of us
> might
>>>>>>> highlight as
>>>>>>> most relevant are going to vary as well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for the new tool to think with. I'll try to get
> Arne's
>>>>>>> genealogy put
>>>>>>> up where yours is and perhaps others will contribute from
> their
>>>>>>> perspectives.
>>>>>>> mike
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 6:42 AM, Andy Blunden
> <ablunden@mira.net
>>>>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>>>>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, here's my shot at it:
>>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Paper/Genealogy-CHAT.pdf
>>>>>>> I have tried to deal with your very valid point,
Martin,
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> it is
>>>>>>> more the milieux than individuals, but I have also just
>>>>>>> omitted a
>>>>>>> billion possible arrows so it is readable. It needs
more
>>>>>>> than one
>>>>>>> person to do this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>> Martin Packer wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My question about the map is what the links
>>>>>>> represent. After
>>>>>>> all, one scientist or philosopher may accept the
>>>>>>> ideas or
>>>>>>> another, or react against them, or modify them, or
>>>>>>> misunderstand
>>>>>>> them. Seems to me each of these is a different
link.
>>>>>>> Also, a
>>>>>>> family tree indicates two parents for every
progeny,
>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>> Arne's genealogy seemingly shows spontaneous
>>>>>>> generation - one
>>>>>>> figure alone can produce another. And wouldn't we
>>>>>>> want to
>>>>>>> have a
>>>>>>> way to map the milieus within which people were
> working?
>>>>>>> Perhaps
>>>>>>> something along the lines of the social fields that
>>>>>>> Bourdieu was
>>>>>>> fond of sketching, but with an added historical
>>>>>>> dimension.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Martin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Nov 4, 2009, at 1:44 AM, Andy Blunden wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To tell the truth Louise, there are a couple of
>>>>>>> names I
>>>>>>> don't know and half a dozen I know so little
> about
> I
>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>> know why they're included ... or not. Two of
the
>>>>>>> three
>>>>>>> "outcomes" are people who think humans are a
> type
> of
>>>>>>> computer, so I am not surpised that this
>>>>>>> genealogy is
>>>>>>> odd to
>>>>>>> me. But there is sooooo much out there. So much
> to
>>>>>>> read. :(
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Up till a few weeks ago I thought that starting
> with
>>>>>>> Descartes was not justified, but I take that
> back
>>>>>>> now. But
>>>>>>> somehow, Rene's nemesis, Aristotle, needs to be
>>>>>>> included as
>>>>>>> well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't know anything about Vico, but I find
> Locke,
>>>>>>> Berkeley
>>>>>>> and Leibniz to be rather peripheral to *our*
> story.
>>>>>>> Kant certainly deserves an important place, but
> I
>>>>>>> think his
>>>>>>> nemesis, Goethe, may be more important for us.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fichte is actually the inventor of Activity as
a
>>>>>>> philosophical concept (I just learnt that Hegel
>>>>>>> asked
>>>>>>> to be
>>>>>>> buried next to Fichte; like Goethe, very under
>>>>>>> recognized in
>>>>>>> the Anglophone world).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hegel is the inventor of Cultural Psychology,
so
>>>>>>> agreed there.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think Stirner and Mach are total diversions
>>>>>>> from our
>>>>>>> tradition. But maybe someone can explain to me
> their
>>>>>>> role.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wundt and Dilthey are important, though I don't
> know
>>>>>>> them well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Feuerbach is a bit of a footnote, but if you're
>>>>>>> going to
>>>>>>> have Feuerbach, you've gotta have Moses Hess,
>>>>>>> author of
>>>>>>> "Philosophy of the Deed", and inspiration for
>>>>>>> "Theses on
>>>>>>> Feuerbach". Of course if you think Frege,
> Russell
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> Turing
>>>>>>> are important to the genealogy of CHAT, then
you
>>>>>>> wouldn't
>>>>>>> want Hess.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> MARX, obviously, in CAPS.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And I would have lines from a whole bunch of
> people
>>>>>>> going to
>>>>>>> Dewey, as well as Peirce and Mead, but even
>>>>>>> though Peirce
>>>>>>> was the elder, I don't think you can give him
> such
>>>>>>> priority.
>>>>>>> Dewey surely was the leader. Arguable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And where are the Gestaltists? Again, not for
>>>>>>> computer
>>>>>>> cognition, but there needs to be lines between
>>>>>>> Goethe and
>>>>>>> Kant and then to von Ehrenfels, and on to
> Koehler
>>>>>>> and Co.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Russian linguists like Potebnya, but I don't
> know
>>>>>>> where they
>>>>>>> came from.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And these threads are all tied together with LS
>>>>>>> Vygotsky, yes?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Freud has to be mentioned (I forget his
> sources),
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> arrows to Luria. And after Vygotsky and Luria
> you
>>>>>>> have ANL
>>>>>>> and thus to present day people,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I guess, you can't leave out Piaget, and I
don't
>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>> Piaget's sources.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know some people rate Merleau-Ponty, but if
> you're
>>>>>>> going
>>>>>>> to give Merleau-Pony a seat, you have to put in
>>>>>>> Lukacs and
>>>>>>> Horkheimer. I guess Habermas for discourse
>>>>>>> ethics, etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have no idea why Husserl and Heidegger get a
>>>>>>> mention. I my
>>>>>>> humble opinion, as clever as they might be,
> their
>>>>>>> impact on
>>>>>>> Activity Theory has only been negative.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have no idea why Bergson is mentioned: was he
> a
>>>>>>> source for
>>>>>>> Piaget? Don't know why Nietzsche is there.
>>>>>>> Interesting guy,
>>>>>>> but so are many others. Why von Uexhill?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree that Wittgenstein rates a mention,
> though
>>>>>>> I don't
>>>>>>> know how much of a source he has been for us.
He
>>>>>>> is some
>>>>>>> kind of version of Activity Theory.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Frege, Russell and Turing are nothing to do
with
>>>>>>> CHAT. What
>>>>>>> about anthropologists??
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Never heard of Maturana.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's my reaction,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Louise Hawkins wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Andy,
>>>>>>> I remember seeing this diagram a number of
>>>>>>> years ago,
>>>>>>> and I found it useful as a big picture
>>>>>>> diagram to
>>>>>>> get my
>>>>>>> head around the significant theorist.
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>> Louise Hawkins
>>>>>>> Lecturer - School of Management &
> Information
>>>>>>> Systems
>>>>>>> Faculty Business & Informatics
>>>>>>> Building 19/Room 3.38
>>>>>>> Rockhampton Campus
>>>>>>> CQUniversity
>>>>>>> Ph: +617 4923 2768
>>>>>>> Fax: +617 4930 9729
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Andy Blunden
[mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>>>>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>>>>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>>>>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>] Sent: Wednesday, 4 November
>>>>>>> 2009 01:05 PM
>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>>>>> Subject: [xmca] Arne Raeithel's "genealogy"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Paper/Theoretical%20connections.jpg
>>>>>>> I never found this map very useful to be
> honest.
>>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>> mike cole wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Have you found Arne Raeithel's
>>>>>>> "genealogy" of
>>>>>>> cultural-historical, activity theory
>>>>>>> thinkers
>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>> several years back. I am sure it is
>>>>>>> somewhere at
>>>>>>> lchc.ucsd.edu <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>
>>>>>>> <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>
>>>>>>> <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>. Perhaps you
(and
>>>>>>> Andy,
>>>>>>> and.....) could update it with
>>>>>>> more detail. Hegel generated so much
> that
>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>> "laundered" by subsequent "original"
>>>>>>> thinkers its
>>>>>>> totally amazing, and ditto Mead (whose
>>>>>>> writings i
>>>>>>> know far better, although very
>>>>>>> inadequately).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>>>
> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
>>>>>>> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev,
>>>>>>> Meshcheryakov,
>>>>>>> Ilyenkov $20 ea
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>>>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
>>>>>>> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev,
> Meshcheryakov,
>>>>>>> Ilyenkov $20 ea
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>>>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
>>>>>>> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
>>>>>>> Ilyenkov $20 ea
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
>>>>> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
>>>>> Ilyenkov $20 ea
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>> --
>>>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
>>> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
Ilyenkov
>>> $20 ea
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> xmca mailing list
>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> _______________________________________________
>> xmca mailing list
>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>
>
> --
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
> Ilyenkov $20 ea
>
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
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>
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
Ilyenkov $20 ea
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