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Re: RE: FW: [xmca] Arne Raeithel's "genealogy"
That's weird. I don't get any text at all when I 'hover'. Not even any
'flashes' of insight for me! Seems to be the consistent story of my day
as I sit struggling with my writing...
But anyway, thanks Andy. It does all help us struggling neophytes work
out where everyone belongs. Gotta lot of reading to do!
Cheers,
Helen
----- Original Message -----
From: David H Kirshner <dkirsh@lsu.edu>
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2009 11:42 am
Subject: RE: FW: [xmca] Arne Raeithel's "genealogy"
To: ablunden@mira.net
Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> Andy, I replied off-line, but your response was intended for on-
> line, so
> I'm forwarding to the list. ...David
>
> David H Kirshner wrote:
> > Much appreciate the graphic, Andy.
> > Unfortunately the accompanying text lingers for only a few seconds
> > before needing to be refreshed by moving cursor out of and back into
> > box. Is this something that can be controlled on your end?
>
> Andy replied:
> Yes, very annoying, isn't it David. I have searched around
> the internet, but so far I haven't found any way of
> controlling this time. Any HTML or Java whizzkids out there?
> Andy
>
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> >
> > Andy Blunden
> >
> > <ablunden@mira.ne
> >
> > t>
> > To
> > Sent by: "eXtended Mind, Culture,
> > Activity"
> > xmca-bounces@webe <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >
> > r.ucsd.edu
> > cc
> >
> >
> >
> > Subject
> > 11/11/2009 01:18 Re: [xmca] Arne Raeithel's
> >
> > AM "genealogy"
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please respond to
> >
> > ablunden@mira.net
> >
> > ; Please respond
> >
> > to
> >
> > "eXtended Mind,
> >
> > Culture,
> >
> > Activity"
> >
> > <xmca@weber.ucsd.
> >
> > edu>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Paper/Genealogy-CHAT.htm
> >
> > I replaced the PDF with an HTML version, which gives you
> > little 50-word summaries of what each contributed to CHAT
> > (when you hover) and a link to their Wikipedia page (when
> > you click).
> >
> > Andy
> >
> > Martin Packer wrote:
> >> Andy, thinking on this a bit further, it seems to me that these
> > diagrams
> >> are trying to do two different things at the same time. One is to
> >> provide helpful contextual information to anyone reading LSV's
> texts.> I
> >> think this itself is a valuable enterprise, one that compensates a
> >> little for the minimal teaching of the history of the discipline in
> >> psychology, at least. A diagram serving this purpose need go no
> > further
> >> towards the present than the end of Vygotsky's life. And for
> this the
> >> lines to and from Vygotsky himself would be redundant; he would be
> >> connected to everyone.
> >>
> >> A second task, and a distinct one in my view, would be a diagram
> >> indicating forms of, and influences on, CHAT today. Here people
> like>> Helmholtz and Fichte would, I think, not play a role - their
> influence
> >> would be entirely mediated by LSV. And such a diagram would be more
> >> detailed about the present: for example, the last row of your
> diagram> is
> >> almost exclusively people working in the US; it would be helpful to
> > see
> >> here Scandinavian, German, British, etc. schools of CHAT.
> >>
> >> I'm not volunteering you for the work (nor do I have time to do it
> >> myself), just trying to think through the role of this kind of
> >> representational reconstruction of intellectual history.
> >>
> >> Martin
> >>
> >>
> >> On Nov 9, 2009, at 12:18 AM, Andy Blunden wrote:
> >>
> >>> Yes, it is mind-boggling. Probably better for people to produce a
> >>> multiplicity of different perspectives, than try to produce a
> master>>> view. There are so many angles!
> >>>
> >>> Lewin is interesting. Not only was he close to the Frankfurt
> School,>>> but he also worked with Vygotsky, and I suspect this is
> where> Vygotsky
> >>> got a lot of his Hegel from.
> >>>
> >>> Andy
> >>>
> >>> Martin Packer wrote:
> >>>> Andy, I think the map is interesting and useful. But how about
> this.
> >>>> I was exploring further on the virtual library that I
> mentioned in
> a
> >>>> prior message. It turns out there's quite a lot there in English,
> > not
> >>>> only German. I had been enjoying myself browsing through scans of
> > the
> >>>> papers of Carl Stumpf, who was teacher of both Kurt Lewin and
> Edmund
> >>>> Husserl. Teacher-student seems to me one important connection
> > between
> >>>> figures. Lewin apparently had regular contact with the Frankfurt
> >>>> School (connection of 'colleague') before leaving for the US,
> where>>>> he would have found himself transplanted into the new
> milieu of
> >>>> behaviorism.
> >>>> I think Mike is right, we need 3D!
> >>>> Martin
> >>>> On Nov 8, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Andy Blunden wrote:
> >>>>> I've been thinking ... What these diagrams lack is any
> information>>>>> about why a writer is included and what they
> contributed to CHAT.
> >>>>> Would anyone on the list like to put their hand up to write a
> >>>>> paragraph (max 100 words probably) on a writer on the diagram
> >>>>> explaining their contribution to CHAT and their sources? I would
> be
> >>>>> happy to collate them and fix the essays to hyperlinks on the
> names
> >>>>> of each writer? ... if others do most of the writing ... then
> the>>>>> diagram might be genuinely useful.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Andy
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Andy Blunden wrote:
> >>>>>> Mmmmm. I didn't sign up for an intellecual map of the universe
> >>>>>> here! The French Revolution produced a mass of political theory
> of
> >>>>>> course, but also, it is widely regarded as the inspiration for
> >>>>>> Classical German Philosophy, which is one of our sources.
> >>>>>> World War One? I don't know, but I have thought in the past
> that>>>>>> what Vygotsky called "The Crisis in Psychology", viz.,
> the myriad
> >>>>>> of conflicting currents in psychology suddenly contesting each
> >>>>>> other after WW1, was some kind of reaction to WW1 and the
> Russian>>>>>> Revolution.
> >>>>>> The Reformation and the Industrial Revolution deserve mention
> >>>>>> somewhere too, in the atlas of ideas. ...
> >>>>>> Andy
> >>>>>> mike cole wrote:
> >>>>>>> Hmmmmm, like the French revolution or world war I for example?
> >>>>>>> :-)
> >>>>>>> mike
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 4:18 PM, Andy Blunden
> <ablunden@mira.net>>>>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Both Arne's and mine are listed on
> >>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Paper/index.html and both are in
> that>>>>>>> directory. I too would be interested in seeing some
> other> versions.
> >>>>>>> Something might emerge out of the crowd.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> It is interesting isn't that it is a quite small number
> of ...
> > what
> >>>>>>> do you say? ... millieux? events? movements? which produced
> the
> >>>>>>> main
> >>>>>>> ideas, via a whole mass of individual writers.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Andy
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> mike cole wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I think your pictured genealogy is interesting, Andy. I
> > thought
> >>>>>>> Arne's was too, and I a sure others can make interesting
> >>>>>>> modifications. If anyone could do this in three D it
> could> get
> >>>>>>> really fascinating.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Part of what makes for the partiality of any such
> attempt> is
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> position of the creator. Arne was a radical cultural
> > historical
> >>>>>>> cognitive scientist of the
> >>>>>>> 70's-90's (roughly), an importatant odd hybrid and
> > unusually
> >>>>>>> nice guy.
> >>>>>>> Maturana, who is on his list, with Varela, were central
> > figures
> >>>>>>> on bringing
> >>>>>>> dynamic systems into the discussion but you do not know
> > about
> >>>>>>> him just
> >>>>>>> as many of us do not know some of the figures you name,
> and
> > the
> >>>>>>> connections such as Dilthey-Wundt or Mead-Dilthey-
> American>>>>>>> pragmatism are poorly known altogether, but
> fascinating(to
> >>>>>>> me!)
> >>>>>>> in their implications.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> And, of course, the historical events that various of us
> > might
> >>>>>>> highlight as
> >>>>>>> most relevant are going to vary as well.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks for the new tool to think with. I'll try to get
> > Arne's
> >>>>>>> genealogy put
> >>>>>>> up where yours is and perhaps others will contribute
> from> their
> >>>>>>> perspectives.
> >>>>>>> mike
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 6:42 AM, Andy Blunden
> > <ablunden@mira.net
> >>>>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
> >>>>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Well, here's my shot at it:
> >>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Paper/Genealogy-CHAT.pdf
> >>>>>>> I have tried to deal with your very valid point,
> Martin,
> >>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>> it is
> >>>>>>> more the milieux than individuals, but I have also
> just>>>>>>> omitted a
> >>>>>>> billion possible arrows so it is readable. It needs
> more
> >>>>>>> than one
> >>>>>>> person to do this.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Andy
> >>>>>>> Martin Packer wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> My question about the map is what the links
> >>>>>>> represent. After
> >>>>>>> all, one scientist or philosopher may accept the
> >>>>>>> ideas or
> >>>>>>> another, or react against them, or modify
> them, or
> >>>>>>> misunderstand
> >>>>>>> them. Seems to me each of these is a different
> link.
> >>>>>>> Also, a
> >>>>>>> family tree indicates two parents for every
> progeny,
> >>>>>>> where
> >>>>>>> Arne's genealogy seemingly shows spontaneous
> >>>>>>> generation - one
> >>>>>>> figure alone can produce another. And wouldn't we
> >>>>>>> want to
> >>>>>>> have a
> >>>>>>> way to map the milieus within which people were
> > working?
> >>>>>>> Perhaps
> >>>>>>> something along the lines of the social fields
> that>>>>>>> Bourdieu was
> >>>>>>> fond of sketching, but with an added historical
> >>>>>>> dimension.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Martin
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Nov 4, 2009, at 1:44 AM, Andy Blunden wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> To tell the truth Louise, there are a
> couple of
> >>>>>>> names I
> >>>>>>> don't know and half a dozen I know so little
> > about
> > I
> >>>>>>> don't
> >>>>>>> know why they're included ... or not. Two of
> the
> >>>>>>> three
> >>>>>>> "outcomes" are people who think humans are a
> > type
> > of
> >>>>>>> computer, so I am not surpised that this
> >>>>>>> genealogy is
> >>>>>>> odd to
> >>>>>>> me. But there is sooooo much out there. So
> much> to
> >>>>>>> read. :(
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Up till a few weeks ago I thought that
> starting> with
> >>>>>>> Descartes was not justified, but I take that
> > back
> >>>>>>> now. But
> >>>>>>> somehow, Rene's nemesis, Aristotle, needs
> to be
> >>>>>>> included as
> >>>>>>> well.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I don't know anything about Vico, but I find
> > Locke,
> >>>>>>> Berkeley
> >>>>>>> and Leibniz to be rather peripheral to *our*
> > story.
> >>>>>>> Kant certainly deserves an important
> place, but
> > I
> >>>>>>> think his
> >>>>>>> nemesis, Goethe, may be more important for
> us.>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Fichte is actually the inventor of
> Activity as
> a
> >>>>>>> philosophical concept (I just learnt that
> Hegel>>>>>>> asked
> >>>>>>> to be
> >>>>>>> buried next to Fichte; like Goethe, very
> under>>>>>>> recognized in
> >>>>>>> the Anglophone world).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hegel is the inventor of Cultural Psychology,
> so
> >>>>>>> agreed there.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I think Stirner and Mach are total diversions
> >>>>>>> from our
> >>>>>>> tradition. But maybe someone can explain
> to me
> > their
> >>>>>>> role.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Wundt and Dilthey are important, though I
> don't> know
> >>>>>>> them well.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Feuerbach is a bit of a footnote, but if
> you're>>>>>>> going to
> >>>>>>> have Feuerbach, you've gotta have Moses Hess,
> >>>>>>> author of
> >>>>>>> "Philosophy of the Deed", and inspiration for
> >>>>>>> "Theses on
> >>>>>>> Feuerbach". Of course if you think Frege,
> > Russell
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> Turing
> >>>>>>> are important to the genealogy of CHAT, then
> you
> >>>>>>> wouldn't
> >>>>>>> want Hess.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> MARX, obviously, in CAPS.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> And I would have lines from a whole bunch of
> > people
> >>>>>>> going to
> >>>>>>> Dewey, as well as Peirce and Mead, but even
> >>>>>>> though Peirce
> >>>>>>> was the elder, I don't think you can give him
> > such
> >>>>>>> priority.
> >>>>>>> Dewey surely was the leader. Arguable.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> And where are the Gestaltists? Again, not for
> >>>>>>> computer
> >>>>>>> cognition, but there needs to be lines
> between>>>>>>> Goethe and
> >>>>>>> Kant and then to von Ehrenfels, and on to
> > Koehler
> >>>>>>> and Co.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Russian linguists like Potebnya, but I don't
> > know
> >>>>>>> where they
> >>>>>>> came from.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> And these threads are all tied together
> with LS
> >>>>>>> Vygotsky, yes?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Freud has to be mentioned (I forget his
> > sources),
> >>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>> arrows to Luria. And after Vygotsky and Luria
> > you
> >>>>>>> have ANL
> >>>>>>> and thus to present day people,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I guess, you can't leave out Piaget, and I
> don't
> >>>>>>> know
> >>>>>>> Piaget's sources.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I know some people rate Merleau-Ponty, but if
> > you're
> >>>>>>> going
> >>>>>>> to give Merleau-Pony a seat, you have to
> put in
> >>>>>>> Lukacs and
> >>>>>>> Horkheimer. I guess Habermas for discourse
> >>>>>>> ethics, etc.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I have no idea why Husserl and Heidegger
> get a
> >>>>>>> mention. I my
> >>>>>>> humble opinion, as clever as they might be,
> > their
> >>>>>>> impact on
> >>>>>>> Activity Theory has only been negative.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I have no idea why Bergson is mentioned:
> was he
> > a
> >>>>>>> source for
> >>>>>>> Piaget? Don't know why Nietzsche is there.
> >>>>>>> Interesting guy,
> >>>>>>> but so are many others. Why von Uexhill?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I agree that Wittgenstein rates a mention,
> > though
> >>>>>>> I don't
> >>>>>>> know how much of a source he has been for us.
> He
> >>>>>>> is some
> >>>>>>> kind of version of Activity Theory.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Frege, Russell and Turing are nothing to do
> with
> >>>>>>> CHAT. What
> >>>>>>> about anthropologists??
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Never heard of Maturana.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> That's my reaction,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Andy
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Louise Hawkins wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Andy,
> >>>>>>> I remember seeing this diagram a
> number of
> >>>>>>> years ago,
> >>>>>>> and I found it useful as a big picture
> >>>>>>> diagram to
> >>>>>>> get my
> >>>>>>> head around the significant theorist.
> >>>>>>> Regards
> >>>>>>> Louise Hawkins
> >>>>>>> Lecturer - School of Management &
> > Information
> >>>>>>> Systems
> >>>>>>> Faculty Business & Informatics
> >>>>>>> Building 19/Room 3.38
> >>>>>>> Rockhampton Campus
> >>>>>>> CQUniversity
> >>>>>>> Ph: +617 4923 2768
> >>>>>>> Fax: +617 4930 9729
> >>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>> From: Andy Blunden
> [mailto:ablunden@mira.net
> >>>>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
> >>>>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
> >>>>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>] Sent: Wednesday, 4 November
> >>>>>>> 2009 01:05 PM
> >>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >>>>>>> Subject: [xmca] Arne Raeithel's
> "genealogy">>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Paper/Theoretical%20connections.jpg
> >>>>>>> I never found this map very useful to be
> > honest.
> >>>>>>> Andy
> >>>>>>> mike cole wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Have you found Arne Raeithel's
> >>>>>>> "genealogy" of
> >>>>>>> cultural-historical, activity theory
> >>>>>>> thinkers
> >>>>>>> from
> >>>>>>> several years back. I am sure it is
> >>>>>>> somewhere at
> >>>>>>> lchc.ucsd.edu <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>>>> <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>>>> <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>. Perhaps you
> (and
> >>>>>>> Andy,
> >>>>>>> and.....) could update it with
> >>>>>>> more detail. Hegel generated so much
> > that
> >>>>>>> has
> >>>>>>> been
> >>>>>>> "laundered" by subsequent "original"
> >>>>>>> thinkers its
> >>>>>>> totally amazing, and ditto Mead
> (whose>>>>>>> writings i
> >>>>>>> know far better, although very
> >>>>>>> inadequately).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> > _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>>>
> > _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> >>>>>>> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> >>>>>>> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev,
> >>>>>>> Meshcheryakov,
> >>>>>>> Ilyenkov $20 ea
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> _______________________________________________>>>>>>>
> xmca mailing list
> >>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> >>>>>>> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> >>>>>>> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev,
> > Meshcheryakov,
> >>>>>>> Ilyenkov $20 ea
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> >>>>>>> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> >>>>>>> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
> >>>>>>> Ilyenkov $20 ea
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>>
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> >>>>> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> >>>>> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
> >>>>> Ilyenkov $20 ea
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>> --
> >>>
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> >>> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> >>> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
> Ilyenkov
> >>> $20 ea
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> xmca mailing list
> >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> xmca mailing list
> >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>
> >
> > --
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> > Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> > Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
> > Ilyenkov $20 ea
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
>
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
> Ilyenkov $20 ea
>
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
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