Re: [xmca] Arne Raeithel's "genealogy"

[Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>]

  http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Paper/Genealogy-CHAT.htm

I replaced the PDF with an HTML version, which gives you 
little 50-word summaries of what each contributed to CHAT 
(when you hover) and a link to their Wikipedia page (when 
you click).

Andy

Martin Packer wrote:
> Andy, thinking on this a bit further, it seems to me that these diagrams 
> are trying to do two different things at the same time. One is to 
> provide helpful contextual information to anyone reading LSV's texts. I 
> think this itself is a valuable enterprise, one that compensates a 
> little for the minimal teaching of the history of the discipline in 
> psychology, at least. A diagram serving this purpose need go no further 
> towards the present than the end of Vygotsky's life. And for this the 
> lines to and from Vygotsky himself would be redundant; he would be 
> connected to everyone.
>
> A second task, and a distinct one in my view, would be a diagram 
> indicating forms of, and influences on, CHAT today. Here people like 
> Helmholtz and Fichte would, I think, not play a role - their influence 
> would be entirely mediated by LSV. And such a diagram would be more 
> detailed about the present: for example, the last row of your diagram is 
> almost exclusively people working in the US; it would be helpful to see 
> here Scandinavian, German, British, etc. schools of CHAT.
>
> I'm not volunteering you for the work (nor do I have time to do it 
> myself), just trying to think through the role of this kind of 
> representational reconstruction of intellectual history.
>
> Martin
>
>
> On Nov 9, 2009, at 12:18 AM, Andy Blunden wrote:
>
> > Yes, it is mind-boggling. Probably better for people to produce a 
> > multiplicity of different perspectives, than try to produce a master 
> > view. There are so many angles!
> >
> > Lewin is interesting. Not only was he close to the Frankfurt School, 
> > but he also worked with Vygotsky, and I suspect this is where Vygotsky 
> > got a lot of his Hegel from.
> >
> > Andy
> >
> > Martin Packer wrote:
> > > Andy, I think the map is interesting and useful. But how about this. 
> > > I was exploring further on the virtual library that I mentioned in a 
> > > prior message. It turns out there's quite a lot there in English, not 
> > > only German. I had been enjoying myself browsing through scans of the 
> > > papers of Carl Stumpf, who was teacher of both Kurt Lewin and Edmund 
> > > Husserl. Teacher-student seems to me one important connection between 
> > > figures. Lewin apparently had regular contact with the Frankfurt 
> > > School (connection of 'colleague') before leaving for the US, where 
> > > he would have found himself transplanted into the new milieu of 
> > > behaviorism.
> > > I think Mike is right, we need 3D!
> > > Martin
> > > On Nov 8, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Andy Blunden wrote:
> > > > I've been thinking ... What these diagrams lack is any information 
> > > > about why a writer is included and what they contributed to CHAT. 
> > > > Would anyone on the list like to put their hand up to write a 
> > > > paragraph (max 100 words probably) on a writer on the diagram 
> > > > explaining their contribution to CHAT and their sources? I would be 
> > > > happy to collate them and fix the essays to hyperlinks on the names 
> > > > of each writer? ... if others do most of the writing ... then the 
> > > > diagram might be genuinely useful.
> > > >
> > > > Andy
> > > >
> > > > Andy Blunden wrote:
> > > > > Mmmmm. I didn't sign up for an intellecual map of the universe 
> > > > > here! The French Revolution produced a mass of political theory of 
> > > > > course, but also, it is widely regarded as the inspiration for 
> > > > > Classical German Philosophy, which is one of our sources.
> > > > > World War One?  I don't know, but I have thought in the past that 
> > > > > what Vygotsky called "The Crisis in Psychology", viz., the myriad 
> > > > > of conflicting currents in psychology suddenly contesting each 
> > > > > other after WW1, was some kind of reaction to WW1 and the Russian 
> > > > > Revolution.
> > > > > The Reformation and the Industrial Revolution deserve mention 
> > > > > somewhere too, in the atlas of ideas. ...
> > > > > Andy
> > > > > mike cole wrote:
> > > > > > Hmmmmm, like the French revolution or world war I for example?
> > > > > > :-)
> > > > > > mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 4:18 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net 
> > > > > > <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >   Both Arne's and mine are listed on
> > > > > >   http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Paper/index.html and both are in that
> > > > > >   directory. I too would be interested in seeing some other versions.
> > > > > >   Something might emerge out of the crowd.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >   It is interesting isn't that it is a quite small number of ... what
> > > > > >   do you say? ... millieux? events? movements? which produced the 
> > > > > > main
> > > > > >   ideas, via a whole mass of individual writers.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >   Andy
> > > > > >
> > > > > >   mike cole wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >       I think your pictured genealogy is interesting, Andy. I thought
> > > > > >       Arne's was too, and I a sure others can make interesting
> > > > > >       modifications. If anyone could do this in three D it could get
> > > > > >       really fascinating.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >       Part of what makes for the partiality of any such attempt is 
> > > > > > the
> > > > > >       position of the creator. Arne was a radical cultural historical
> > > > > >       cognitive scientist of the
> > > > > >       70's-90's (roughly), an importatant odd hybrid and unusually
> > > > > >       nice guy.
> > > > > >       Maturana, who is on his list, with Varela, were central figures
> > > > > >       on bringing
> > > > > >       dynamic systems into the discussion but you do not know about
> > > > > >       him just
> > > > > >       as many of us do not know some of the figures you name, and the
> > > > > >       connections such as Dilthey-Wundt or Mead-Dilthey-American
> > > > > >       pragmatism are poorly known altogether, but fascinating (to 
> > > > > > me!)
> > > > > >       in their implications.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >       And, of course, the historical events that various of us might
> > > > > >       highlight as
> > > > > >       most relevant are going to vary as well.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >       Thanks for the new tool to think with. I'll try to get Arne's
> > > > > >       genealogy put
> > > > > >       up where yours is and perhaps others will contribute from their
> > > > > >       perspectives.
> > > > > >       mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > >       On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 6:42 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
> > > > > >       <mailto:ablunden@mira.net> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
> > > > > >       <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >          Well, here's my shot at it:
> > > > > >            http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Paper/Genealogy-CHAT.pdf
> > > > > >          I have tried to deal with your very valid point, Martin, 
> > > > > > that
> > > > > >       it is
> > > > > >          more the milieux than individuals, but I have also just 
> > > > > > omitted a
> > > > > >          billion possible arrows so it is readable. It needs more 
> > > > > > than one
> > > > > >          person to do this.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >          Andy
> > > > > >          Martin Packer wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >              My question about the map is what the links 
> > > > > > represent. After
> > > > > >              all, one scientist or philosopher may accept the 
> > > > > > ideas or
> > > > > >              another, or react against them, or modify them, or
> > > > > >       misunderstand
> > > > > >              them. Seems to me each of these is a different link. 
> > > > > > Also, a
> > > > > >              family tree indicates two parents for every progeny, 
> > > > > > where
> > > > > >              Arne's genealogy seemingly shows spontaneous 
> > > > > > generation - one
> > > > > >              figure alone can produce another. And wouldn't we 
> > > > > > want to
> > > > > >       have a
> > > > > >              way to map the milieus within which people were working?
> > > > > >       Perhaps
> > > > > >              something along the lines of the social fields that
> > > > > >       Bourdieu was
> > > > > >              fond of sketching, but with an added historical 
> > > > > > dimension.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >              Martin
> > > > > >
> > > > > >              On Nov 4, 2009, at 1:44 AM, Andy Blunden wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >                  To tell the truth Louise, there are a couple of 
> > > > > > names I
> > > > > >                  don't know and half a dozen I know so little about I
> > > > > >       don't
> > > > > >                  know why they're included ... or not. Two of the 
> > > > > > three
> > > > > >                  "outcomes" are people who think humans are a type of
> > > > > >                  computer, so I am not surpised that this 
> > > > > > genealogy is
> > > > > >       odd to
> > > > > >                  me. But there is sooooo much out there. So much to
> > > > > >       read. :(
> > > > > >
> > > > > >                  Up till a few weeks ago I thought that starting with
> > > > > >                  Descartes was not justified, but I take that back
> > > > > >       now. But
> > > > > >                  somehow, Rene's nemesis, Aristotle, needs to be
> > > > > >       included as
> > > > > >                  well.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >                  I don't know anything about Vico, but I find Locke,
> > > > > >       Berkeley
> > > > > >                  and Leibniz to be rather peripheral to *our* story.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >                  Kant certainly deserves an important place, but I
> > > > > >       think his
> > > > > >                  nemesis, Goethe, may be more important for us.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >                  Fichte is actually the inventor of Activity as a
> > > > > >                  philosophical concept (I just learnt that Hegel 
> > > > > > asked
> > > > > >       to be
> > > > > >                  buried next to Fichte; like Goethe, very under
> > > > > >       recognized in
> > > > > >                  the Anglophone world).
> > > > > >
> > > > > >                  Hegel is the inventor of Cultural Psychology, so
> > > > > >       agreed there.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >                  I think Stirner and Mach are total diversions 
> > > > > > from our
> > > > > >                  tradition. But maybe someone can explain to me their
> > > > > >       role.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >                  Wundt and Dilthey are important, though I don't know
> > > > > >       them well.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >                  Feuerbach is a bit of a footnote, but if you're 
> > > > > > going to
> > > > > >                  have Feuerbach, you've gotta have Moses Hess, 
> > > > > > author of
> > > > > >                  "Philosophy of the Deed", and inspiration for 
> > > > > > "Theses on
> > > > > >                  Feuerbach". Of course if you think Frege, Russell 
> > > > > > and
> > > > > >       Turing
> > > > > >                  are important to the genealogy of CHAT, then you 
> > > > > > wouldn't
> > > > > >                  want Hess.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >                  MARX, obviously, in CAPS.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >                  And I would have lines from a whole bunch of people
> > > > > >       going to
> > > > > >                  Dewey, as well as Peirce and Mead, but even 
> > > > > > though Peirce
> > > > > >                  was the elder, I don't think you can give him such
> > > > > >       priority.
> > > > > >                  Dewey surely was the leader. Arguable.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >                  And where are the Gestaltists? Again, not for 
> > > > > > computer
> > > > > >                  cognition, but there needs to be lines between 
> > > > > > Goethe and
> > > > > >                  Kant and then to von Ehrenfels, and on to Koehler 
> > > > > > and Co.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >                  Russian linguists like Potebnya, but I don't know
> > > > > >       where they
> > > > > >                  came from.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >                  And these threads are all tied together with LS
> > > > > >       Vygotsky, yes?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >                  Freud has to be mentioned (I forget his sources), 
> > > > > > with
> > > > > >                  arrows to Luria. And after Vygotsky and Luria you
> > > > > >       have ANL
> > > > > >                  and thus to present day people,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >                  I guess, you can't leave out Piaget, and I don't 
> > > > > > know
> > > > > >                  Piaget's sources.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >                  I know some people rate Merleau-Ponty, but if you're
> > > > > >       going
> > > > > >                  to give Merleau-Pony a seat, you have to put in
> > > > > >       Lukacs and
> > > > > >                  Horkheimer. I guess Habermas for discourse 
> > > > > > ethics, etc.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >                  I have no idea why Husserl and Heidegger get a
> > > > > >       mention. I my
> > > > > >                  humble opinion, as clever as they might be, their
> > > > > >       impact on
> > > > > >                  Activity Theory has only been negative.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >                  I have no idea why Bergson is mentioned: was he a
> > > > > >       source for
> > > > > >                  Piaget? Don't know why Nietzsche is there.
> > > > > >       Interesting guy,
> > > > > >                  but so are many others. Why von Uexhill?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >                  I agree that Wittgenstein rates a mention, though 
> > > > > > I don't
> > > > > >                  know how much of a source he has been for us. He 
> > > > > > is some
> > > > > >                  kind of version of Activity Theory.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >                  Frege, Russell and Turing are nothing to do with
> > > > > >       CHAT. What
> > > > > >                  about anthropologists??
> > > > > >
> > > > > >                  Never heard of Maturana.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >                  That's my reaction,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >                  Andy
> > > > > >
> > > > > >                  Louise Hawkins wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >                      Andy,
> > > > > >                      I remember seeing this diagram a number of 
> > > > > > years ago,
> > > > > >                      and I found it useful as a big picture 
> > > > > > diagram to
> > > > > >       get my
> > > > > >                      head around the significant theorist.
> > > > > >                      Regards
> > > > > >                      Louise Hawkins
> > > > > >                      Lecturer - School of Management & Information 
> > > > > > Systems
> > > > > >                      Faculty Business & Informatics
> > > > > >                      Building 19/Room 3.38
> > > > > >                      Rockhampton Campus
> > > > > >                      CQUniversity
> > > > > >                      Ph: +617 4923 2768
> > > > > >                      Fax: +617 4930 9729
> > > > > >                       -----Original Message-----
> > > > > >                      From: Andy Blunden [mailto:ablunden@mira.net
> > > > > >       <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
> > > > > >                      <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
> > > > > >       <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>] Sent: Wednesday, 4 November
> > > > > >                      2009 01:05 PM
> > > > > >                      To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > > >                      Subject: [xmca] Arne Raeithel's "genealogy"
> > > > > >                             
> > > > > > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Paper/Theoretical%20connections.jpg
> > > > > >                      I never found this map very useful to be honest.
> > > > > >                      Andy
> > > > > >                      mike cole wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >                          Have you found Arne Raeithel's 
> > > > > > "genealogy" of
> > > > > >                          cultural-historical, activity theory 
> > > > > > thinkers
> > > > > >       from
> > > > > >                          several years back. I am sure it is 
> > > > > > somewhere at
> > > > > >                          lchc.ucsd.edu <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>
> > > > > >       <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>
> > > > > >                          <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>. Perhaps you (and 
> > > > > > Andy,
> > > > > >                          and.....) could update it with
> > > > > >                          more detail. Hegel generated so much that 
> > > > > > has
> > > > > >       been
> > > > > >                          "laundered" by subsequent "original" 
> > > > > > thinkers its
> > > > > >                          totally amazing, and ditto Mead (whose 
> > > > > > writings i
> > > > > >                          know far better, although very 
> > > > > > inadequately).
> > > > > >
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> > > > > >
> > > > > >                  --                   
> > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> > > > > >
> > > > > >                  Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> > > > > >                  Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev,
> > > > > >       Meshcheryakov,
> > > > > >                  Ilyenkov $20 ea
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> > > > > >
> > > > > >          --           
> > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> > > > > >
> > > > > >          Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> > > > > >          Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
> > > > > >          Ilyenkov $20 ea
> > > > > >
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> > > > > >   --     
> > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> > > > > >
> > > > > >   Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> > > > > >   Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
> > > > > >   Ilyenkov $20 ea
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> > > >
> > > > Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> > > > Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov, 
> > > > Ilyenkov $20 ea
> > > >
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> > Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov, Ilyenkov 
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Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov, 
Ilyenkov $20 ea

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