Hmmmmm, like the French revolution or world war I for example?
:-)
mike
On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 4:18 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
Both Arne's and mine are listed on
http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Paper/index.html and both are in that
directory. I too would be interested in seeing some other versions.
Something might emerge out of the crowd.
It is interesting isn't that it is a quite small number of ... what
do you say? ... millieux? events? movements? which produced the main
ideas, via a whole mass of individual writers.
Andy
mike cole wrote:
I think your pictured genealogy is interesting, Andy. I thought
Arne's was too, and I a sure others can make interesting
modifications. If anyone could do this in three D it could get
really fascinating.
Part of what makes for the partiality of any such attempt is the
position of the creator. Arne was a radical cultural historical
cognitive scientist of the
70's-90's (roughly), an importatant odd hybrid and unusually
nice guy.
Maturana, who is on his list, with Varela, were central figures
on bringing
dynamic systems into the discussion but you do not know about
him just
as many of us do not know some of the figures you name, and the
connections such as Dilthey-Wundt or Mead-Dilthey-American
pragmatism are poorly known altogether, but fascinating (to me!)
in their implications.
And, of course, the historical events that various of us might
highlight as
most relevant are going to vary as well.
Thanks for the new tool to think with. I'll try to get Arne's
genealogy put
up where yours is and perhaps others will contribute from their
perspectives.
mike
On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 6:42 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>> wrote:
Well, here's my shot at it:
http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Paper/Genealogy-CHAT.pdf
I have tried to deal with your very valid point, Martin, that
it is
more the milieux than individuals, but I have also just
omitted a
billion possible arrows so it is readable. It needs more
than one
person to do this.
Andy
Martin Packer wrote:
My question about the map is what the links represent.
After
all, one scientist or philosopher may accept the ideas or
another, or react against them, or modify them, or
misunderstand
them. Seems to me each of these is a different link.
Also, a
family tree indicates two parents for every progeny, where
Arne's genealogy seemingly shows spontaneous generation
- one
figure alone can produce another. And wouldn't we want to
have a
way to map the milieus within which people were working?
Perhaps
something along the lines of the social fields that
Bourdieu was
fond of sketching, but with an added historical dimension.
Martin
On Nov 4, 2009, at 1:44 AM, Andy Blunden wrote:
To tell the truth Louise, there are a couple of
names I
don't know and half a dozen I know so little about I
don't
know why they're included ... or not. Two of the three
"outcomes" are people who think humans are a type of
computer, so I am not surpised that this genealogy is
odd to
me. But there is sooooo much out there. So much to
read. :(
Up till a few weeks ago I thought that starting with
Descartes was not justified, but I take that back
now. But
somehow, Rene's nemesis, Aristotle, needs to be
included as
well.
I don't know anything about Vico, but I find Locke,
Berkeley
and Leibniz to be rather peripheral to *our* story.
Kant certainly deserves an important place, but I
think his
nemesis, Goethe, may be more important for us.
Fichte is actually the inventor of Activity as a
philosophical concept (I just learnt that Hegel asked
to be
buried next to Fichte; like Goethe, very under
recognized in
the Anglophone world).
Hegel is the inventor of Cultural Psychology, so
agreed there.
I think Stirner and Mach are total diversions from our
tradition. But maybe someone can explain to me their
role.
Wundt and Dilthey are important, though I don't know
them well.
Feuerbach is a bit of a footnote, but if you're
going to
have Feuerbach, you've gotta have Moses Hess,
author of
"Philosophy of the Deed", and inspiration for
"Theses on
Feuerbach". Of course if you think Frege, Russell and
Turing
are important to the genealogy of CHAT, then you
wouldn't
want Hess.
MARX, obviously, in CAPS.
And I would have lines from a whole bunch of people
going to
Dewey, as well as Peirce and Mead, but even though
Peirce
was the elder, I don't think you can give him such
priority.
Dewey surely was the leader. Arguable.
And where are the Gestaltists? Again, not for computer
cognition, but there needs to be lines between
Goethe and
Kant and then to von Ehrenfels, and on to Koehler
and Co.
Russian linguists like Potebnya, but I don't know
where they
came from.
And these threads are all tied together with LS
Vygotsky, yes?
Freud has to be mentioned (I forget his sources), with
arrows to Luria. And after Vygotsky and Luria you
have ANL
and thus to present day people,
I guess, you can't leave out Piaget, and I don't know
Piaget's sources.
I know some people rate Merleau-Ponty, but if you're
going
to give Merleau-Pony a seat, you have to put in
Lukacs and
Horkheimer. I guess Habermas for discourse ethics,
etc.
I have no idea why Husserl and Heidegger get a
mention. I my
humble opinion, as clever as they might be, their
impact on
Activity Theory has only been negative.
I have no idea why Bergson is mentioned: was he a
source for
Piaget? Don't know why Nietzsche is there.
Interesting guy,
but so are many others. Why von Uexhill?
I agree that Wittgenstein rates a mention, though I
don't
know how much of a source he has been for us. He is
some
kind of version of Activity Theory.
Frege, Russell and Turing are nothing to do with
CHAT. What
about anthropologists??
Never heard of Maturana.
That's my reaction,
Andy
Louise Hawkins wrote:
Andy,
I remember seeing this diagram a number of
years ago,
and I found it useful as a big picture diagram to
get my
head around the significant theorist.
Regards
Louise Hawkins
Lecturer - School of Management & Information
Systems
Faculty Business & Informatics
Building 19/Room 3.38
Rockhampton Campus
CQUniversity
Ph: +617 4923 2768
Fax: +617 4930 9729
-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Blunden [mailto:ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>] Sent: Wednesday, 4 November
2009 01:05 PM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: [xmca] Arne Raeithel's "genealogy"
http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Paper/Theoretical%20connections.jpg
I never found this map very useful to be honest.
Andy
mike cole wrote:
Have you found Arne Raeithel's "genealogy" of
cultural-historical, activity theory thinkers
from
several years back. I am sure it is
somewhere at
lchc.ucsd.edu <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>
<http://lchc.ucsd.edu>
<http://lchc.ucsd.edu>. Perhaps you (and Andy,
and.....) could update it with
more detail. Hegel generated so much that has
been
"laundered" by subsequent "original"
thinkers its
totally amazing, and ditto Mead (whose
writings i
know far better, although very inadequately).
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