Re: [xmca] Influence

[Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

I am not sure what essential point is at issue here, Andy. There are several
people digging through the LSV archives who might
be able to find the sort of additional evidence you are looking for --
Natalia G should know, and others. How much hegel came
directly from LSV reading him in his youth, how much came via Plexhanov (The
Psych of Art seems to take a very Plexhanovian take
on base-superstructure), how much it was via others or part of a local
zeitgeist, i am not sure.

Is this is a difference that makes a difference? What difference does it
make to what issue that would help us understand cultural
historical theory better, design better environments for kids, help brain
rattled vets to recover their lives, avoid misunderstanding each other in
our chatter??

mike

On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 8:17 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

> Oh yes of course. I did ask Karl. Karl like everyone else holds that
> Vygotsky read Hegel. I have also emailed Alex Kozulin. I am still waiting
> for evidence other than Semyon Dobkin and suppositions. I am in a minority
> of one here.
>
> For example, look what Vygotsky has to say about Hegel in "Psychology of
> Art". Nothing. Except to ridicule the Hegelian Rosenkranz. But he has lots
> to say about Plekhanov, the no. 1 interpreter of Hegel in Russia in LSV's
> youth.
>
> Andy
>
> Mike Cole wrote:
>
>> Well, you might also ask Mr Levitin.
>> mike
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 6:51 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:
>> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>>
>>    Yes but ... David referred to this. As far as I can see all the
>>    biographers of Vygotsky get this idea from the same source, Semyon
>>    Dobkin's interview in Karl Levitin's book. We have to go there and
>>    make our own mind up about what it means.  And the only other
>>    evidence is reading what Vygotsky says in his published writings.
>>
>>    In my opinion, neither of these sources lad one to believe that he
>>    actually read Hegel.
>>
>>    Did anyone ever read Thor Hayerdal's "Kontiki" about how everyone
>>    insisted that balsa wood sank in water. He tried it. It didn't sink.
>>    Turned out that one writer had said but this without trying it, and
>>    everyone repeated what that one author had said, and it became an
>>    established fact.
>>
>>    Andy
>>
>>
>>    Martin Packer wrote:
>>
>>        This is my favorite:
>>
>>        "[Vygotsky] presided over local Jewish history study circle
>>        (where he met Hegel)"
>>
>>         From "Time line of Lev Vygotsky's Life":
>>
>>         <
>> http://inst.usu.edu/~mimi/courses/6260/theorists/Vygotsky/vygotime.html<http://inst.usu.edu/%7Emimi/courses/6260/theorists/Vygotsky/vygotime.html>
>>        <
>> http://inst.usu.edu/%7Emimi/courses/6260/theorists/Vygotsky/vygotime.html
>> >>
>>
>>        I've often wondered what Hegel was doing during the early 20th
>>        century. Apparently he was studying history in Russia! I wonder
>>        what he and LSV talked about.
>>
>>        Martin
>>
>>
>>        On Aug 8, 2009, at 11:05 AM, Martin Packer wrote:
>>
>>            "Both Mead and Vygotsky studied Hegel's writings intensively"
>>
>>            Van der Veer, R. (1987).  The relation between Vygotsky and
>>            Mead reconsidered. A comment on Glock.
>>            Studies in East European Thought. 34, Numbers 1-2 / July, 1987
>>
>>                Do people have any opinions on this?
>>
>>                I suspect that the concept of "influence" is more widely
>>                applied than can be justified. When is a "source" an
>>                "influence"?
>>
>>                For example, Google gave me the following quotes:
>>
>>                ---------------
>>
>>                "Vygotsky was influenced by Marxist theorists"
>>                (wik.ed.uiuc.edu <http://wik.ed.uiuc.edu>)
>>
>>                "Vygotsky was influenced by Dewey" (Cambridge Companion)
>>
>>                "Vygotsky was influenced by his contemporaries" (Peter
>>                Lloyd, Charles Fernyhough)
>>
>>                "Vygotsky was influenced by thinkers like Spinoza,
>>                Freud, Marx and Piaget" (www.oise.utoronto.ca
>>                <http://www.oise.utoronto.ca>)
>>
>>                "Vygotsky was influenced by the writings of Marx,
>>                Engels, and Hegel. He was also influenced by Piaget,
>>                Blonskii, and Werner" (Moll)
>>
>>                "Vygotsky was influenced by Janet's ideas on ..."
>>                (Grigorenko)
>>
>>                "Vygotsky was influenced by and influenced many
>>                theorists. Jean Piaget, Jerome Bruner, Albert Bandura,
>>                Etienne Wenger, and Dewey are just a few." (jonliu.com
>>                <http://jonliu.com>)
>>
>>                ---------------
>>
>>                I think the first three are tenable, but the rest are
>>                not. We are "influenced" by people we interact with and
>>                those answering to the same times and problems as us.
>>                But what can  I make of a claim that Vygotsky was
>>                "influenced" by Spinoza, who lived about 250 years
>>                before him? Everyone contributes to an intellectual
>>                situation and we respond to that situation, but does
>>                that amount to "influence"? "Influence" belongs to a
>>                behaviorist's lexicon I think, as it discounts any
>>                agency on the one being "influenced."
>>
>>                I'm sure I'm not the first person to raise this. Is
>>                there a distinction which is usually brought to bear here?
>>
>>                Andy
>>
>>
>>                --
>>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>                Andy Blunden (Erythrós Press and Media)
>>                http://www.erythrospress.com/
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>>
>>        Martin Packer, Ph.D.
>>        Associate Professor
>>        Psychology Department
>>        Duquesne University, Pittsburgh, PA, USA 15282
>>        (412) 396-4852
>>
>>        www.mathcs.duq.edu/~packer/ <http://www.mathcs.duq.edu/%7Epacker/><
>> http://www.mathcs.duq.edu/%7Epacker/>
>>
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>>
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