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Re: [xmca] On the shape of the zpd and message in a bottle

Well, I think some of the fun of xmca is trying out statements that are a little strong and then trying to defend them against all comers, including my better self. 
Mike has reminded me, that some of what I've said in this space really IS nonsense: Kohler's apes did NOT learn instantly or not at all, and in that sense the Kohler results are similar to Thorndike's.
eric: Yes, it's a bold statement, and yes, it really does do away with the Vygotsky triangle, and with the goal-orientation which Leontiev makes so much of. But I think the boldness is to be found in Vygotsky's statement that we cannot explain the trajetory of a cannoball solely by referring to the aim of a gunner. Vygotsky himself is rejecting the idea that the triangle, or any other form of analysis into units that has, at bottom, stimulus response, can explain consciousness.
Carol: I think it really depends on what we mean by CONSCIOUS grammar. But I also think that any use of the SIGNIFYING function of language--that is, znachenie as opposed to smysl, has implicit in it the idea that concepts are related to other concepts and not simply to objects. And as you say ALL foreign language teaching has this as a starting point. Of course, Belyayev would say that, and so would Lanham.
I have long suspected, and now I am quite sure, that YOU are the C. Macdonald referred to in the paper by Nutall and Langhan on the Molteno Project in Swain and Johnson, Immersion Education: International Perspectives. 
Do you know where I can find:
Macdonald, C.A. (1989) English langaueg skills evaluation: A final report of the Threshold Project.
Macdonal, C.A. and Burroughs, E. (1991) Bilingual models of education: I see a tree with leaves.
Or any other good stuff on Molteno, Lanham, and Belyayev? I'm designing a graduate MA course on immersion next fall and I don't want to do all that Canadian stuff again.
David Kellogg
Seoul National University of Education

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