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Re: [xmca] a minus times a plus AND BINARIES




Really, I am the last person to state, too seriously, unconditional propositions, whether pro-binary or anti-binary! I am all for complexity and the need for Both/And vs. Either/Or logics. (There is a lot of very interesting discussion of the Both/And approach in the work of Anthony Wilden, who sought a synthesis of Bateson and Lacan.)

I did write, re synthesizing approaches to the integers, and synthesizing into coherent master narratives generally, that they can do good for us and also can mislead us.

I don't really identify binary logic with scientism, because binarism is far more widespread. Of course there is a lot of breath expended over one binary, True/False, but I believe that the focus on this one evaluative dimensions, and depriving it of the key feature of having degrees (say, of freshness), common to all evaluations in English semantics, is quite ideological and intellectually counter-productive. It's also really quite abstract because it implies that all propositions that are called True are true in the same sense, which I do not believe. Many different classes of proposition are demonstrated to be true or not by very different procedures, and so, concretely, I take them to be true in different senses. This is turn means one has to be rather cautious about metaphors comparing different sorts of truths, as for example freshness vs honesty or whatever Bulgakov was on about. (I have not read the novel, and maybe I will now.)

So I liked Mike's strong version of what is not so much, I think, anti- binarism as anti- Black-or-White-ism, meaning not only that we are presented with only two mutually exclusive choices, but that everything on one side is reduced to an equivalence class, homogenized, stereotyped, and so also on the other. Which gives rise to such very unhappy binaries as White vs Black, or non-White (racially), or Gay vs Straight, or American vs un-American, or Us vs Them. Less abstraction and more attention to local, specific, concrete realities (life, in Mike's terms) restores the messiness, requiring at least a fuzzy logic (i.e. the technical one, not merely sloppy classical logic), with degrees of membership in classes, and more desirably, explicit clustering of diverse elements on both sides. Which in turn tends to subvert the radical mutual exclusivity of the two sides (Mike's leakage), because now we begin to see that some of the concrete elements on one side actually do have important (values!) qualities in common with some of the elements that have been put on the other side. From the inevitability of binarist war, we find some potential grounds for a modus vivendi.

I saw online the other day Obama speaking to the National Academy of Sciences. He got the biggest round of applause, not for his announcement of lots of new funding for research, but for a statement that in his administration the practice of subjugating science to ideology would end. While there was not a lot of media attention to this issue during the Bush presidency, it was widely known in the scientific community, and in the education research community, that there was an unprecedented amount of serious political interference in the conduct of research based on right-wing political ideology. While I am against Science making quasi-religious claims to universal Truth, as much because it is bad in the long run for the goals of science as because it is intellectually distasteful to me, I do agree, Eugene, that sometimes we do also need to support, conditionally and on a case by case basis, some of the normative canons of scientific investigation, even when those include what I might call "provisional binaries". Sometimes it is just heuristically useful to investigate something as if there were an absolute binary involved. It occasions a risk to the research that it will miss something else important by doing so. And the culture of science believes that sooner or later, if there is a problem with the binarist assumption, someone else will point it out and we can come back and re-do things as needed.

We also have a serious practical political issue here. Scientism, or just the credibility of scientifically-derived statements of "fact", can be a wonderful weapon to use against ideologies we passionately disagree with. It is nice to have it in reserve, just in case our moral-political arguments are not enough, or the balance of material and media power is against us. The reason that the Bush conservatives were interfering in scientific research was as much to try and insure that no such weapons fell into their opponents' hands as to try and generate "facts" that fit with their own ideological prejudgments. On our side, I think we have a measure of confidence that, left to its own devices, science's findings will at least not contradict our values and political prescriptions (or maybe we'd even reconsider our positions if they did). Personally, I think most scientific findings or conclusions are already so larded with interpretations that there is always a lot of leeway between anything I'd call a "fact" (say, a reading on a measuring instrument) and anything that can be construed as bearing very directly on a political or moral issue. So I am not too worried about the inevitability of a certain "realpolitik" when it comes to the credibility of Science.

JAY.

Jay Lemke
Professor
Educational Studies
University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, MI 48109
www.umich.edu/~jaylemke




On May 3, 2009, at 4:28 AM, Eugene Matusov wrote:

Dear Mike and everybody—



Mike, I am not interested in playing intellectual games either (e.g., I do
not like playing a chess game). But I liked your challenge or my own
challenge: to find out if there are any unconditional statements that I would agree. I almost believed that you offered one… but, at the end, it did not pass my final test. Since, I’m trying to be consistently inconsistent, consideration of truth, whatever it leads me, does not bother me. I’m happy that you did not play the game either (although, you would not offend me if
you did).



I think I respectfully disagree with you and maybe with Jay that the binary logic is inherently (and unconditionally) bad while contextual statements involving leakage of sides are inherently (and unconditionally) good. I think (=expect) that you agree with the latter but might still disagree with the former. I admit that at times, I have conversations with my computer despite the fact that I agree with you that it is an oxymoron ;-) It is also oxymoron to speak to myself – what new I can say to myself that myself/I do not already know? Despite this apparent paradox (and my inconsistency), I
have conversations with myself and with my computer.



I think that our suspicion of the binary logic comes from our criticism of
positivism and scientism. There is nothing wrong in this suspicion,
especially, when the binary logic is treated as the universal one but I think we should be careful in not overdoing our criticism. There is a danger that our post-modernist criticism of modernist, positivistic science, aligns with pre-modernist criticism of modernism. However, as we all know, enemy of my enemy is not necessary my friend but it can be an even bigger enemy. Bush’s premodernist critique of science should be also criticized from a
post-modern position rather we should join him.



As your question about freshness and Jesus, I think that there is only one freshness: the first and the last one (very binary! J). I do not know about Jesus, but I believe that Kot Begemot would agree with me (for non- Russian audience, Kot Begemot was a part of the Devil’s court from Bulgakov’s novel “Master and Margarita”, literally “Tom-cat Hippo”, a very cunning, ironic, and smart character). I wonder what Dewey or Vygotsky would say about it…
;-)



Take care,



Eugene







From: Mike Cole [mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 9:23 PM
To: Eugene Matusov
Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; PIG; backontrack@wwscholars.org; Zoi
Philippakos
Subject: Re: [xmca] a minus times a plus



I am a Cretan, that anyone can tell you, Eugene. As to Sandra "having a
conversation with Ella(Z):

I have long taken it as axiomatic that the phrase, "Conversation with a
computer"
is an oxymoron. Sort like an oxy-Cretan (poor people from Crete- judging
from the
size of their houses when Zeus was roaming around, they were very small and
led difficult lives).

Computers, and chatbots, are artifacts created by other humans (or other computer programs created by humans) and are, eventually, in the sequences
of
mediations, connect to other humans. I agree with the conclusion, but am saddened by the lack of orientation to the discourse that generated this
journal.

I was not playing Gotcha. I was trying to explore the way in which
categories
create insides and outsides and generalize and in so doing, err. But if I
lost a game
of gotcha and it brings you pleasure, go for it. Thanks for the new insight
into that
issue of two kinds of people. Diversity uber alles, up to the point where it causes blood to flow. Then it start to worry me a lot, but I am a worrier.

Do you think that Jesus believed there were only two degrees of freshness of
fish?
What would Kot Begamot think about this issue?
mike

On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 5:55 PM, Eugene Matusov <ematusov@udel.edu> wrote:

Dear Mike and everybody—



Mike, you almost got me! Very good challenge – thanks!, “And, as you know, there are only two kinds of people in the world --- those who believe there are only two kinds of people and those who think there are more.” I almost
unconditionally agreed with your statement and then I noticed its
meta-statement, “there are only two kinds of people in the world….” that is congruent with “those who believe there are only two kinds of people…” thus the person who stated this claim that I had initially liked belongs to the first category him or herself… It is like, “One Cretan said that all Cretans are liars.” Very smart, indeed! ;-) Thanks for this Sabbath’s puzzle (I did
not know it)…



Have an unconditionally tasty fish,



Eugene

PS I like to hear more about your reading of discursive psychology and their
use of the terms “activity” and “culture” and about reasons for your
wonderment. Can you share more, please?







From: Mike Cole [mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 7:37 PM
To: Eugene Matusov
Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; PIG; backontrack@wwscholars.org; Zoi
Philippakos


Subject: Re: [xmca] a minus times a plus



da net! Eugene. :-)

Of course there are several degrees of freshness. This is a trout fisherman
writing.
And a resident of the coastline of California. Caught and cooked on the
spot/ caught and
frozen and taken home safely through the desert/bought at my local fish
store on thursday,
bought at my local fish store on monday..........

But I love your example and the novel is one of my very favorites.

And, as you know, there are only two kinds of people in the world --- those
who believe there are only
two kinds of people and those who think there are more.

conditionally speaking
mike

PS-- Reading about discursive psychology in the interims and wondering why
the word activity is
used as it is and where the word culture is, and what Lois thinks of it, and
mostly wishing I had more
time to read it!




On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 3:56 PM, Eugene Matusov <ematusov@udel.edu> wrote:

Dear Jay and Mike and everybody--

Conditionally, Jay, I like Mike's statement as well,

It
is the
heterogeneity within the "two parts" and leakage between them and
their
relations to "their context" that IS life.

but only conditionally. There are situations when this statement is deadly
but binary logic is on the side of life. I remember a famous allegoric
statement from Russian novel "Master and Margarita" by Michael Bulgakov. In short, in the novel's plot, the Devil visited Stalinist Russia (Moscow to be exact) in the 1930s during the Stalinist worst purges. Among other things the Devil visited a theater to make familiar with New Soviet people. In theater buffet, the Devil noticed rotten fish with the label, "Fish of the third [degree] freshness." The Devil told the buffet salesperson, "Dear salesperson, somebody has lied to you. There is no such thing as 'fish of the third-degree freshness. Fish can be only one degree of freshness: either it is fresh or not. Respectful, your fish is not fresh, it stinks." This short exchange revealed the deception of Stalinist "leakage" of two parts (namely, life and death). The binary logic presented by the Devil here was on the side of life, while non-binary Stalinist discourse of making 'white' black and 'black' white (that at that time often referred as 'dialectics')
was on the side of death.

I think we might be careful in indorsing any universal statements even when they can be true, on average (in our sociocultural conditions). We should be
also careful with our fight against scientific positivism that has
historically emerged in response to (religious) totalitarian ideology of manipulative "leakages". After the Bush administration reign, I have become even more careful about dissing positivistic science.... (By the way, the Bush administration used discourses that were convincingly based on both the binary logic and at the same time on the manipulative "leakages", like, for example, torture becomes not torture but rather a permissible grey area of
an "intense interrogation technique"). Binary logic can bring life
sometimes, indeed....

What do you think?

Eugene


-----Original Message-----
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca- bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
On Behalf Of Jay Lemke
Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 4:46 PM
To: mcole@weber.ucsd.edu; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] a minus times a plus

Right on, Mike!!

Jay Lemke
Professor
Educational Studies
University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, MI 48109
www.umich.edu/~jaylemke <http://www.umich.edu/%7Ejaylemke>





On May 2, 2009, at 8:37 PM, Mike Cole wrote:

What one I think is literally deadening, Eugene, is binaries with
uniformities on both sides. Under such conditions, change is
impossible. It
is the
heterogeneity within the "two parts" and leakage between them and
their
relations to "their context" that IS life.
mike

On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 11:13 AM, Tony Whitson <twhitson@udel.edu>
wrote:

According to Wikipedia, "Jackie Mason" was born Yacov Moshe Maza
(for what
it's worth).


On Sat, 2 May 2009, Michael Glassman wrote:


Eugene,

I would argue that the intonation is not so much related to
language as it
is to culture - in essence a part of cultural capital that can be
found in
Russia, but in a number of other places around the world with a
number of
different languages.  You use the example,

-?? (da-da) is a good translation from Mogenbesser's Jewish
English,
"Yeah, yeah" in Russian. As you, probably, know, Russian is very
intonation-based language - almost any word might have the
opposite meaning
with the right intonation. Like for example, "Have you my taken my
book?" "I
need your book badly!" ("?? ?? ???? ??? ??????» --
«????? ??? ????? ????
?????!») - it is difficult to translate this Russian exchange into
English
because the response has the intonation indicating the opposite
meaning that
its formal semantics suggests. One Russian (Soviet) poet commented
that
Russian language does not support «?????» (i.e., report to a
secret police).

But anybody who has listened to Jackie Mason, not such a good
human being
but a pretty good comedian, has heard him using the type of
intonation you
are discussing brilliantly in English - so brilliantly you would
wonder how
it could work in any other language - but of course it could.  I'm
sure the
same intonation, or maybe different types of intonations
expressing meaning
but especially sense, could be used in almost any language as long
as the
speaker was comfortable with it.   What is interesting about the
use of this
type of intonation is when somebody uses it - at least in English
- I can
make a pretty good guess about where they grew up in the United
States.
Some people who are really good at this can even limit it to
general
neighborhoods - and you immediately recognize certain cultural
qualities
about that individual and it cuts through a lot of other
information.  On
the other end of the spectrum somebody could use the intonation
perfectly in
Columbus Ohio and individuals would just understand the remark
based on the
more straight forward understanding (and might consider you a
little alien
for using the intonation).  What also might suggest the intonation
being
part of cultural capital rather than the language itself is the
fact the I
think it is often time used as a form of intimacy, kidding, or
making fun in
a non-maliscious way.

Michael



________________________________

From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu on behalf of Eugene Matusov
Sent: Sat 5/2/2009 1:31 PM
To: mcole@weber.ucsd.edu
Cc: backontrack@wwscholars.org; 'Zoi Philippakos'; 'eXtended Mind,
Culture, Activity'; 'PIG'
Subject: RE: [xmca] a minus times a plus



Dear Mike and everybody-



You wrote, "another example of binary logic which is anti-human".
I wonder
what makes this logic anti-human is not necessary that it is
binary, but
maybe the fact that it strives to be the universal, unconditional,
disembodied, and decontextualized. I think that limited and
situated binary
relations can be humane. As you nicely put it before, the
universal answer
to any problem is, "it depends" ;-) The big problem, of course,
what it
depends on... (I always say to my grad students that the answer
for the
latter question will be addressed in a future Advanced Grad
Sociocultural
Seminar that I never teach J)

??

-?? (da-da) is a good translation from Mogenbesser's Jewish
English,
"Yeah, yeah" in Russian. As you, probably, know, Russian is very
intonation-based language - almost any word might have the
opposite meaning
with the right intonation. Like for example, "Have you my taken my
book?" "I
need your book badly!" ("?? ?? ???? ??? ??????» --
«????? ??? ????? ????
?????!») - it is difficult to translate this Russian exchange into
English
because the response has the intonation indicating the opposite
meaning that
its formal semantics suggests. One Russian (Soviet) poet commented
that
Russian language does not support «?????» (i.e., report to a
secret police).



Ed made an interesting and thought-provoking point, "Social
relations
don't give rise to mathematics, but mathematics seems to give,
perspectivally, a rise to social relations." I think that in
general, it is
a chicken-egg problem but I suspect that social relations have
priority over
math. So, Ed, we have a respectful disagreement, indeed. The
reason for my
suspicion is that usually, although not always, social relations
have a
priority over everything else. For example, it seems that
historical
emergency of geometry was a result of a certain development of
private
property on land and conflicts associated with it. Certain (but
not all!)
mathematical questions could emerge only within certain social
relations..
One of these vivid examples can be mathematical division. I'm
always amazed
how difficult for Western kids to understand fractional division
leading to
a number bigger that divided. For example, 2 divided by ½ becomes
4. Western
understanding of fair sharing almost exclusively as splitting the
whole on
equal but smaller parts (private property) makes very difficult to
consider
a possibility for collective sharing in which the more people
share the more
value the whole has. We have a PIG Lab of Internationally Recognize
Excellence - the more people use it, the more valuable it becomes
(to a
point of course, ;-). By collective sharing, ten PIGgies virtually
have 10
labs! Or 1 divided on 1/10 is 10. I think this fractional division
reflects
collective sharing (and collective fairness) in contrast to whole
number
division based on private property sharing (and private property
fairness).
It is interesting to study this question empirically....



What do you think?



Eugene

PS I know that everyone in this XMCA discussion who replies to my
messages
gets bounced message from the PIG email list (no connection to the
swine
flu!). I try to resend your messages to the my PIGgy colleagues.



---------------------

Eugene Matusov, Ph.D.

Professor of Education

School of Education

University of Delaware

Newark, DE 19716, USA



email: ematusov@udel.edu

fax: 1-(302)-831-4110

website: http://ematusov.soe.udel.edu <http://
ematusov.soe.udel.edu/>  <
http://ematusov.soe.udel.edu/>

publications: http://ematusov.soe.udel.edu/vita/publications.htm



Dialogic Pedagogy Forum: http://diaped.soe.udel.edu <
http://diaped.soe.udel.edu/>  <http://diaped.soe.udel.edu/>

---------------------







From: Mike Cole [mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 10:01 PM
To: Eugene Matusov
Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity; backontrack@wwscholars.org;
Zoi
Philippakos; PIG
Subject: Re: [xmca] a minus times a plus



That it works to think that the enemy of your enemy is your friend
is
another example
of binary logic which is anti-human. Shit happens a lot, Eugene.

Your yeah yeah example is in the increasingly long and equally
interesting
trail of emails on
this thread.

da da
?
zhanchit?
mike

On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Eugene Matusov <ematusov@udel.edu>
wrote:

Dear Mike--

You wrote,

And for sure, Eugene, it is a cardinal error to believe that the
enemy
of
your enemy is your friend. Maybe, maybe
not. Like all laws of social science, it all depends.


Actually, it worked rather well during the WWII for the Allies (US-
UK) and
the USSR. Their cooperation in opposition to the Nazi Germany was
governed
by the Arabic wisdom "an enemy of your enemy is your friend." It
can be
powerful indeed but as you said it is not universal.

As to the natural language and the formal logic (math), in natural
language
(+1)*(+1)=-1, according to famous anecdote, "The most celebrated
[Sidney]
Morgenbesser anecdote involved visiting Oxford philosopher J. L.
Austin,
who
noted that it was peculiar that although there are many languages
in which
a
double negative makes a positive, no example existed where two
positives
expressed a negative. In a dismissive voice, Morgenbesser replied
from the
audience, 'Yeah, yeah.'"

Take care,

Eugene


-----Original Message-----
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
]


On Behalf Of Mike Cole
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:38 PM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity


Cc: backontrack@wwscholars.org; Zoi Philippakos; PIG
Subject: Re: [xmca] a minus times a plus


Eugene, the mixture of plus and minus was the focus of my inquiry.
Natural
language understanding
of double negatives solves that problem for 2 numbers, beyond
which I
assume
natural language needs
a notation system to keep track.

So far Jerry Balzano's mirror explanation seems like it has the
best
chance
with my grand daughter (in
part because i can actually imagine creating the demonstration
that
lines up
intuition and notation). I
have not had time to read all of the notes in this thread owing to
heavy
teaching and extra lecture schedule
and a rash of recommendation letters out of season (which I will
accept
as a
sub for swine flu). But
simply in scanning could I make a plea for socio-CULTURAL
constructivism? If
we do not keep what is
essential to human forms of human sociality in the discussion, we
might
as
well be talking about bonobos
who, at least, know enough to make love not war.

And for sure, Eugene, it is a cardinal error to believe that the
enemy
of
your enemy is your friend. Maybe, maybe
not. Like all laws of social science, it all depends.

mike


On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 1:44 PM, Eugene Matusov
<ematusov@udel.edu>
wrote:

Dear everybody--

In response to Mike's profound inquiry of why a minus times a
minus

is a

plus, I was thinking that it is a mathematical model of the
Arabic

wisdom

that "an enemy of my enemy is my friend." Of course, the latter
is

not

always true -- we have plenty of examples when enemy of our
enemy is

still

our enemy (or just indifferent) and, thus, for these types of
social
relations, the mathematical model of (-1) x (-1) =1 does not
work.

Just

consider, for an example, the relations among the US, Al-Qaida,
and

Saddam

Hussein.

The issue for me is why the Western civilization prioritizes (and

then

mathematizes) social relations described in the Arabic wisdom.
One

answer

is
because "the real world" works according to these social
relations

(i.e.,

the social relations is just an example of the truth out there).
An
alternative explanation is that the Western civilization can
afford

and

might be even benefit from imposing these social relations on
"the

real

world" that by itself is indifferent to any social relations (and

thus

mathematical models). Any other explanations?

What do you think?

Eugene



-----Original Message-----
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-

bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]

On Behalf Of Ng Foo Keong


Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 12:23 PM
To: ablunden@mira.net; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] a minus times a plus


Is Mathematics _merely_ socially constructed, or is there something
deeper and inevitable?

I think this deserves a new thread, but I couldn't manage to
start

one.

Let me try to draw out and assemble the line of discussion that

spun

off from the "a minus times a plus" thread.

In her inaugural post to xcma, Anna Sfard about talked "rules
of the mathematical game" among other things.

Then Jay Lemke said:-

...
I think it's important, however, to see, as Anna emphasizes,
that there is a certain "arbitrariness" involved in this, or
if you like it better: a freedom of choice. Yes, it's
structure-and-agency all over again! Structure determines that
some things fit into bigger pictures and some don't, but
agency is always at work deciding which pictures, which kind
of fit, which structures, etc. And behind that values, and
culture, and how we feel about things.


-----
Then I (Ng Foo Keong) said:-

regarding structure and agency, arbitrariness:-
i think now it's time for me to pop this question that has been
bugging me for some time.  i am convinced that mathematics is
socially constructured, but i am not so convinced that

mathematics

is _merely_ socially constructured.  if we vary across cultures
and different human activities, we might find different ways
in which patterns and structure can be expressed and yet we
might
find commonalities / analogies.  the question i am asking is:
is maths just a ball game determined by some group of nerds who
happen to be in power and dominate the discourse, or is there

some

invariant, something deeper in maths that can transcend and unite
language, culture, activity .... ?


Foo Keong,
NIE, Singapore

-----
Then Ed Wall said:-

Ng Foo Keong
As regards your question about mathematics being socially
constructed, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by
mathematics or what kind of evidence would convince you it

wasn't.

Suppose I said that there was evidence for innate subtizing.



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Tony Whitson
UD School of Education
NEWARK  DE  19716

twhitson@udel.edu
_______________________________

"those who fail to reread
are obliged to read the same story everywhere"
               -- Roland Barthes, S/Z (1970)

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__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
signature database 4049 (20090501) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4049 (20090501) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com





__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4049 (20090501) __________



The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.



http://www.eset.com



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4049 (20090501) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com





__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 4049 (20090501) __________



The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.



http://www.eset.com

_______________________________________________
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca



_______________________________________________
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca