Re: [xmca] a minus times a plus

[Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

That it works to think that the enemy of your enemy is your friend is
another example
of binary logic which is anti-human. Shit happens a lot, Eugene.

Your yeah yeah example is in the increasingly long and equally interesting
trail of emails on
this thread.

da da
?
zhanchit?
mike

On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Eugene Matusov <ematusov@udel.edu> wrote:

> Dear Mike--
>
> You wrote,
> > And for sure, Eugene, it is a cardinal error to believe that the enemy
> > of
> > your enemy is your friend. Maybe, maybe
> > not. Like all laws of social science, it all depends.
>
> Actually, it worked rather well during the WWII for the Allies (US-UK) and
> the USSR. Their cooperation in opposition to the Nazi Germany was governed
> by the Arabic wisdom "an enemy of your enemy is your friend." It can be
> powerful indeed but as you said it is not universal.
>
> As to the natural language and the formal logic (math), in natural language
> (+1)*(+1)=-1, according to famous anecdote, "The most celebrated [Sidney]
> Morgenbesser anecdote involved visiting Oxford philosopher J. L. Austin,
> who
> noted that it was peculiar that although there are many languages in which
> a
> double negative makes a positive, no example existed where two positives
> expressed a negative. In a dismissive voice, Morgenbesser replied from the
> audience, 'Yeah, yeah.'"
>
> Take care,
>
> Eugene
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> > On Behalf Of Mike Cole
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:38 PM
> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Cc: backontrack@wwscholars.org; Zoi Philippakos; PIG
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] a minus times a plus
> >
> > Eugene, the mixture of plus and minus was the focus of my inquiry.
> > Natural
> > language understanding
> > of double negatives solves that problem for 2 numbers, beyond which I
> > assume
> > natural language needs
> > a notation system to keep track.
> >
> > So far Jerry Balzano's mirror explanation seems like it has the best
> > chance
> > with my grand daughter (in
> > part because i can actually imagine creating the demonstration that
> > lines up
> > intuition and notation). I
> > have not had time to read all of the notes in this thread owing to
> > heavy
> > teaching and extra lecture schedule
> > and a rash of recommendation letters out of season (which I will accept
> > as a
> > sub for swine flu). But
> > simply in scanning could I make a plea for socio-CULTURAL
> > constructivism? If
> > we do not keep what is
> > essential to human forms of human sociality in the discussion, we might
> > as
> > well be talking about bonobos
> > who, at least, know enough to make love not war.
> >
> > And for sure, Eugene, it is a cardinal error to believe that the enemy
> > of
> > your enemy is your friend. Maybe, maybe
> > not. Like all laws of social science, it all depends.
> >
> > mike
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 1:44 PM, Eugene Matusov <ematusov@udel.edu>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Dear everybody--
> > >
> > > In response to Mike's profound inquiry of why a minus times a minus
> > is a
> > > plus, I was thinking that it is a mathematical model of the Arabic
> > wisdom
> > > that "an enemy of my enemy is my friend." Of course, the latter is
> > not
> > > always true -- we have plenty of examples when enemy of our enemy is
> > still
> > > our enemy (or just indifferent) and, thus, for these types of social
> > > relations, the mathematical model of (-1) x (-1) =1 does not work.
> > Just
> > > consider, for an example, the relations among the US, Al-Qaida, and
> > Saddam
> > > Hussein.
> > >
> > > The issue for me is why the Western civilization prioritizes (and
> > then
> > > mathematizes) social relations described in the Arabic wisdom. One
> > answer
> > > is
> > > because "the real world" works according to these social relations
> > (i.e.,
> > > the social relations is just an example of the truth out there). An
> > > alternative explanation is that the Western civilization can afford
> > and
> > > might be even benefit from imposing these social relations on "the
> > real
> > > world" that by itself is indifferent to any social relations (and
> > thus
> > > mathematical models). Any other explanations?
> > >
> > > What do you think?
> > >
> > > Eugene
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
> > bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> > > > On Behalf Of Ng Foo Keong
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 12:23 PM
> > > > To: ablunden@mira.net; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] a minus times a plus
> > > >
> > > > Is Mathematics _merely_ socially constructed, or is there something
> > > > deeper and inevitable?
> > > >
> > > > I think this deserves a new thread, but I couldn't manage to start
> > one.
> > > > Let me try to draw out and assemble the line of discussion that
> > spun
> > > > off from the "a minus times a plus" thread.
> > > >
> > > > In her inaugural post to xcma, Anna Sfard about talked "rules
> > > > of the mathematical game" among other things.
> > > >
> > > > Then Jay Lemke said:-
> > > > > ...
> > > > > I think it's important, however, to see, as Anna emphasizes,
> > > > > that there is a certain "arbitrariness" involved in this, or
> > > > > if you like it better: a freedom of choice. Yes, it's
> > > > > structure-and-agency all over again! Structure determines that
> > > > > some things fit into bigger pictures and some don't, but
> > > > > agency is always at work deciding which pictures, which kind
> > > > > of fit, which structures, etc. And behind that values, and
> > > > > culture, and how we feel about things.
> > > >
> > > > -----
> > > > Then I (Ng Foo Keong) said:-
> > > >
> > > > > regarding structure and agency, arbitrariness:-
> > > > > i think now it's time for me to pop this question that has been
> > > > > bugging me for some time.  i am convinced that mathematics is
> > > > > socially constructured, but i am not so convinced that
> > mathematics
> > > > > is _merely_ socially constructured.  if we vary across cultures
> > > > > and different human activities, we might find different ways
> > > > > in which patterns and structure can be expressed and yet we might
> > > > > find commonalities / analogies.  the question i am asking is:
> > > > > is maths just a ball game determined by some group of nerds who
> > > > > happen to be in power and dominate the discourse, or is there
> > some
> > > > > invariant, something deeper in maths that can transcend and unite
> > > > > language, culture, activity .... ?
> > > >
> > > > Foo Keong,
> > > > NIE, Singapore
> > > >
> > > > -----
> > > > Then Ed Wall said:-
> > > >
> > > > > Ng Foo Keong
> > > > > As regards your question about mathematics being socially
> > > > > constructed, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by
> > > > > mathematics or what kind of evidence would convince you it
> > wasn't.
> > > > > Suppose I said that there was evidence for innate subtizing.
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